On ideas

[prillalar]

[ I wrote this over a month ago and then didn't post it. But what the hell. ]

Disclaimer: I am not asserting that I have never, ever once done this myself, because likely I have at some point.

All over my flist, all the time, I see people posting about the stories they are writing and/or the stories they want to write. Not just "I'm working on a long-ish TezuRyo" or "I have an idea for some angsty Sam/Daniel". But actual details about the story or the idea for the story. And I wonder why that is.

If you are putting up the idea as a reminder to yourself, why not make a private post so you are the only one who can read it? Why expose your ideas to the LJ-reading public or even just your flist?

I don't do this myself because I am pretty close with my ideas. I may discuss them with one or two people so I can get help developing them, but I don't want to describe them in public. And I confess I just can't understand why others do so.

In fact, I find it puzzling and somewhat problematic. Suppose you want to write a story about Marcus and Oliver where things aren't going that well for them. You have an idea that you think you'll work on. So you post in your LJ:

I think I'm going to write a story where Oliver's mother dies and Marcus has to be supportive but he doesn't know how to deal with Oliver's grief and they end up having trouble with their relationship.

Now, I'm zipping along, reading my flist, and I read your post. I feel uncomfortable about it for a couple of reasons:

1. It feels to me like you are claiming this idea as your own, but without having done the work of developing it first.

2. Your idea is now in my brain.

I don't want to steal other people's ideas. But sometimes I see something like that and it just sparks and I want to write about it. So then I have to either just push it out of my mind or go to the poster and beg them to let me use their idea. That puts both of us in an awkward social situation.

And what if I remember the idea but forget that it's not mine? What if two months later, I'm thinking, I'd like to write something about Marcus and Oliver where they're having trouble with their relationship -- what about if Oliver's father dies and Marcus can't cope with Oliver's grief? So I write this story, not realising the idea isn't original to me, and then post it. Meanwhile, you have either been working on your story and not finished it or not got around to it yet.

How do you feel when I post my story? It's not like I plagiarized you -- but I did use your idea, even though it wasn't intentional. What if someone calls me on it? Then I feel badly because I didn't mean to do that.

Or maybe I did. Maybe I read your idea and decided to write it myself before you could. Hey, it could happen.

What's the statue of limitations on these ideas, anyhow? I realise that it's outside of fannish etiquette to grab your Marcus/Oliver idea right off the bat. But what if a year goes by and you don't write it? Can I take it then without asking you? What about six months? Three months?

I feel like it dilutes ideas to reveal them to all and sundry before the story is written. And it creates expectation in people which you might not meet, if you drop the story or never start it.

And here's the most ranty, snarky part of all: I sometimes suspect people of posting these detailed ideas so that they can get feedback for the idea itself, without having to go to the trouble of writing the actual story.

So, aside from that reason, which I'm not asking you to cop to, I am genuinely curious as to why you post your ideas in your LJ. Please tell me, so I can understand.

And let me know if I can steal them.

Edited to add:

Something I should have clarified: I don't think that writing the same basic idea as someone else is morally wrong and, anyhow, it's inevitable that ideas will be repeated. I don't have a problem with that.

Here, though, I think there's a social issue. If I write a Marcus/Oliver story like the one I described and someone already wrote one six months ago and someone else writes one six months later, no big. But if someone on my friends list posts their idea and then I write a story using it in fairly short order, that's outside the social bounds that we set in fandom. That's what I'm talking about here. The fuzzy social rules and expectations of fandom in general and LJ in particular.

Writing the story based on your idea is not wrong, so much as it's gauche.

Comments

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Well, if I post part of something that I'm working on, yeah, I'm looking for some encouragement to propel me forward. I don't normally post ideas the way you describe them; the one or two times I have, I've done it because I really don't think I can write them and am hoping someone else will. (This has, incidentally, worked for me at least once.)

[prillalar]

Right, and that seems pretty reasonable. I wonder how often people do adopt offered plots.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

And I do it as a safeguard against being accused of stealing other people's ideas. I've had it happen to me, and to close friends. Not in HP, but in XMM, which left a lot of ugly scars.

If I say in my LJ, I'm working on a Remus/Hermione just post-OotP story, if someone else's comes out before mine, I can always point and say, 'yeah, I know, but I've been working on it, too. See? I posted a snippet and talked about it' etc.

Hive mind can be horribly disheartening (and having experienced two instances of it in the same day yesterday, believe me when I say, it really, really is), if you see that a fabulous fic idea you thought you were going to wow people with shows up in a fic while yours is still one final polish from being done, or even if you're only halfway through. Especially with pairing fic, because the circles tend to be small, you know?

I mean, nobody blinks twice when there's a rush of Bring Back Black or post-prank MWPP fic, because those are just general tropes, in my particular end of HP fandom, and people inspire each other all the time, but sometimes it's annoying when you've been working on something a long time and then you post second and are thought to be the imitator.

Though yes, it can work against you, too. I mean, if I say I'm writing homophobic!James fic, someone else may decide to jump on that, and there's nothing I can do but hope my story is better different enough not to cause comment, because it's not any kind of original idea.

It's a Catch-22 I suppose.

I used to just email back and forth with a few friends about ideas for fic, or bounce them around on AIM, but as fandom interests diverge, I find that harder to do when the people I IM with or email with aren't interested in my latest HP or Firefly or whatever fandom idea, whereas on LJ I can find people who are.

[prillalar]

And I do it as a safeguard against being accused of stealing other people's ideas. I've had it happen to me, and to close friends.

Oh, jeez, that's harsh. I haven't had that happen to me, but I've seen it happen before.

I mean, nobody blinks twice when there's a rush of Bring Back Black or post-prank MWPP fic, because those are just general tropes, in my particular end of HP fandom, and people inspire each other all the time, but sometimes it's annoying when you've been working on something a long time and then you post second and are thought to be the imitator.

Yeah, there's a really fuzzy area between general tropes and specific ideas. In TXF, there was a (weird) pairing that I wrote quite a lot and nobody else wrote at all. If someone else had started writing them later on, I wonder what my own reaction would have been, and what other fans would have thought.

And, as I said in my ETA, I don't think that using the same idea is *wrong*, but often, it's just *not done*. Fandom social conventions can be confusing and difficult.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

I do it partly as a brainstorming.

Colloborative ideas don't both me all that much, as two people working from the same summary/challenge can yield radically different finished stories. It's when people copy the plot point-for-point, twist-for-twist and even word for word that it gets bad.

[prillalar]

Colloborative ideas don't both me all that much, as two people working from the same summary/challenge can yield radically different finished stories.

Very true. Working from the same idea doesn't necessarily mean that the story will be derivative.

[viggorlijah.livejournal.com]

Take! Take my ideas! Jae took a half assed idea bout a bet seducing Backstreet and turned it into the bestest coldest story and I felt all "damn, wish I'd done it" for five minutes and then got over it. I am A-OK about taking ideas, partly because I'm happy to read several versions of a specific idea by different authors. Every story runs alone, as long as there's some sort of acknowledgment (not permission) of the sharedness.

Also I totally agree with posting ideas for feedback because when I have agreat idea but can't/won't write it, it's kinda mean to leave the bunny to wither and die unknown. Set it free, and it'll at least make someone smile and think "hey that'd be cool", or at most wonderfully, plant an idea for a story.

[prillalar]

Maybe we should have an idea swap. :)

The thing about posting ideas for feedback is more when people say, "Oh, I'm writing this story about X" and people post and say "Cool! Can't wait to read it!" and then the story never appears. I find it irksome. But not if someone says, "Here's the idea, I'm not going to write it."

[zortified.livejournal.com]

I think people post details so they can get a dialogue going - to either get feedback on the overall plot of the story, or to see if anyone goes "oo! yea! write it write it!"

There is no statue of limitations on ideas. I think anyone who posts details, is acknowledging that they are sharing those ideas. Besides, no one can own the plot that Marcus is having trouble dealing with a greiving lover. What if you'd thought of it, and never read that person's LJ? How could you be blamed for using the same idea if you honestly thought it up on your own?

I tend to not share details on stories I'm writing or want to write, because I'm afraid that people will then expect me to finish and post said story. ;-)

I would say, go ahead and write your own version of the story ideas you like, and if you want to cover your butt you can say in the author notes 'I saw the basic idea posted in someone's lj, and thought I'd write my own.' Or something.

[prillalar]

I tend to not share details on stories I'm writing or want to write, because I'm afraid that people will then expect me to finish and post said story.

Hee! There's that. And I think I want people to think that my stories spring fully formed, like Athene, from my head. *g*

[chinawolf.livejournal.com]

I don't usually post anything beyond vague concepts, and only to a filter of people I trust. Sometimes, I comment back and forth about what's going on with a story I co-write on LJ for everyone to see, but when that discussion becomes too detailed, the post disappears into a filter that only I and my co-writer have access to. Generally, even with the idea you just posted, I feel that there simply *is* no original idea about anything anymore, unless you invent new spells or write AUs/futurefics that differ significantly from canon.

What are the chances that three years ago, someone wrote exactly that fic about Oliver and Marcus? Or if not about them, maybe about Oliver and Fred Weasley? I'd say they're pretty high. It's your basic hurt/comfort with a slight twist, after all.

Actually, one of the main reasons why I never really got into writing up until now is the feeling that whatever plot I could come up with, it has been done before and I couldn't ever be sure if I wasn't stealing from a fic I'd read. The general themes are clear, so it's all just a matter of re-writing it well or not. Off the top of my head, I can think of only one single fic in all my time in the HP fandom that was really inventive (can't find the link now, it's a Hogwarts - A History entry by H. Granger about the invention of a new class of spells, the Unconsciounables).

So I guess somebody announcing vague story ideas doesn't really bother me, because most times, I've read a fic just like that before.

[prillalar]

Yes, I don't mean that the example idea I used, or really any of my ideas are A. that original or B. untouchable. But I feel socially awkward when I read the ideas that people post because I don't really have a clear idea of what's appropriate to do with them. But people's responses here are helping me to work that out.

[leviosa8.livejournal.com]

I understand your arguments, and I neither write fic nor have ideas posted on my FL (or if they are I ignore them XD), so I cannot understand why people do that and it is best to read their reasons.
However, I do write as a hobby (I'm currently re-writing a novel I finished years ago)and I hate it when I have ideas that I don't know where they came from, whether it is just my inspiration, the mixture of book/song/movie ideas, or something I read from someone and inadvertedly kept in mind and now comes up as something original. Unconscious plagiarism is one of my biggest fears when writing, so what you wrote made a lot of sense to me.

[prillalar]

I'm really close with my own ideas so it always puzzles me when other people are so free with theirs.

I worry sometimes about using strange similes that I'm unconsciously lifting from someone else. It's hard to know if you've made something up or just remembered it.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

What's the statue of limitations on these ideas, anyhow?

If there were an actual prohibition on using someone else's ideas--even just those that had already been written into actual stories--75% OF FANFIC WOULD NEVER BE WRITTEN. Seriously, most writers do little but churn out rehashings of a few fannish ideas. So I say, if you can do something interesting with a story, don't worry about what general concepts may have sparked it. It'll be five times more creative than the average story is.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

75% of fanfic? Dude, most real books would never get written.

[ursulakohl.livejournal.com]

I'm more likely to post ideas in comments than in a post of my own; but when I do that, I really do want someone to take them. Currently, for instance, I want someone to write a story in which the Author's Notes take over:

Jessica was only 16 but she was 5'11 and blond, also she liked to wear pink and go shoppinjg and she always got ot use her mother's creidit card (A/N guys there is thes big white thing at my window I don't know what it is it is sort of flapping OK maybe if I ignore it it will just go awya) OK so Jessicxa, everybody hated her at ther school because she was better than them also her parents were not her real parents one of them looked kinda funny (A/N I don't know what it's doing maybe it has claws)

etc.

I've written stories because I wanted someone to steal the idea, too. I don't know if it has worked, though.

[prillalar]

Hee! That's a great idea! Why would you rather someone take that over than do it yourself?

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't do this, I think. Or at least not much. But my personal belief (which is one of these real "unpopular fandom opinions" that I don't normally post, because I'd just as soon not be defriended in droves) is that story ideas aren't stealable - that is, that ideas aren't copyrightable things that belong only to the person who thought them up, that it's implementation that determines plagiarism, and that if for example I am inspired by what you've just written above and decide to write a story where Oliver's mother dies and Marcus has to be supportive but he doesn't know how to deal with Oliver's grief and they end up having trouble with their relationship I can guarantee you that it will be different from yours, and that it doesn't really matter who thought up the idea, what matters is how we both execute it, and the readers will decide which is better for them individually.

[saffronhouse.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Yes, exactly. The idea is not the story. I wonder if the odd possessiveness over sketchily-defined plots in fandom tends to be concentrated among less-experienced writers. Because it definitely can be a heady experience to come up with my-idea-which-is-mine -- I mean, it certainly feels like a genuine eureka moment, and since fan fiction may be the first attempt at writing for many, perhaps it takes a few years to figure out there aren't really many eureka moments in writing. It's more like laying bricks than discovering new continents.

My theory which is mine, and worth exactly as much as any other idea snatched out of the air...

[gloss]

There's the weird thing going on where we're working with derived characters, situations, and universes, yet some of us can be extremely, insanely protective of our originality. I don't know if it's the usual inverse relationship between scope of power and need for assertion or what, but I've certainly seen people get disgruntled when "their" idea is "stolen". Oddly, these are often the same people who move in circles and support friends' fics that are mostly indistinguishable and exceedingly fanonical.

I sometimes suspect people of posting these detailed ideas so that they can get feedback for the idea itself, without having to go to the trouble of writing the actual story.
Hells yes. It's a tantalizing, show-offy move a lot of time - look! I have ideas! - without follow-through. And ideas are often easier to remember for the average reader than actual, careful execution.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I've certainly seen people get disgruntled when "their" idea is "stolen". Oddly, these are often the same people who move in circles and support friends' fics that are mostly indistinguishable and exceedingly fanonical.


Yes. That's quite often the case.

However, they can make your life exceedingly unpleasant if they think you've swiped their ideas.

Otoh, I do find being hiveminded kind of depressing when it happens. Well, depending on the circumstances.

[florahart]

1. You ever see me do that and it gives you an idea, you go right to it. I will never, ever be irritated about this unless I have actually put up a big sign that says please nobody steal this idea I just had, but if I felt that way, I wouldn't be posting it.

2. As Isis says, ideas themselves are not copyrightable, at least in the US, if any of our work were (I mean, it is, sorta, because anything you write is protected, but not so much, cos fanfic, and...anyway). People who'd have that cow are just not understanding this, or are being wanky.

3. Why to? Well. Might want to spark comment/get encouragement/get ideas. Or it just might be in my consciousness while I'm posting, and I'm telling folks about it. ?

[prillalar]

You ever see me do that and it gives you an idea, you go right to it. I will never, ever be irritated about this unless I have actually put up a big sign that says please nobody steal this idea I just had, but if I felt that way, I wouldn't be posting it.

That's good to know. I'm genuinely curious about what people's expectations are. :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

i agree. and i don't do it.

[prillalar]

Clearly we are of one mind. :)

[ari-o.livejournal.com]

I post up bunnies I can't write - and make private posts for details on stories I am working on. :D

[prillalar]

Cool. :)

[saffronhouse.livejournal.com]

So, aside from that reason, which I'm not asking you to cop to, I am genuinely curious as to why you post your ideas in your LJ.

Well, I genuinely don't post my ideas for stories, but that's because my initial ideas tend to be highly derivative and kinda dumb. I figure if I can compile enough verbiage, that will hide the stunningly unoriginal origins, so I'm certainly not going to willingly reveal very, very creaky bones.

The only time I've knowingly revealed a story origin is when I've blatantly run with someone else's idea. katie_m's idea, in fact, and I'm still wildly grateful she's let me play in her universe.

[prillalar]

I don't think anyone's ideas are going to be all that original -- it's the execution that really makes it. :)

[zarahemla.livejournal.com]

I would be so honored if you stole one of my plots -- unfortunately, ideas are so thin these days that if I had one, I wouldn't tell anyone. LOL

[prillalar]

Hee! I'll keep an eye out in case you slip up. :)

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Similar questions crop up constantly in vidding communities, especially the one of which I'm part. Vidders that I know are quite secretive about their vids while they're in progress -- they might refer to "the Fraser vid" or "the Crichton vid" without going into any more detail. My assumption is that some of this has to do with the fear of the song being used by someone else, always a hot topic. And I think many of us would agree with you that using a song someone else has vidded is not morally wrong, but it's "not done" -- or at least, not done intentionally.

In fact, often you see posts like "Has anyone ever vidded 'Walking on Sunshine'?" where the vidder will often decide not to use the song if it's been used before. Of course, then the vidder has revealed her song choice, so if she does decide to use it, she makes herself vulnerable to someone else picking up the idea from her initial post. But she can also say "I was first!"

How I wish vidders would ask, instead, "Has anyone ever vidded Methos and Duncan slamming each other against the car?" and discard overused clips, rather than overused songs!

I sometimes will post a vid idea where I mention the character or concept and the song, but mostly it's to find out if people think I'm crackheaded for coming up with the idea at all. It's a litmus test: will this fly? Most often, though, I play it pretty close to the vest, not out of any proprietary sense, but because I don't like to steal my own thunder when it's time to release the vid itself.

[greensilver.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I've wondered about that - the tendency among vidders to not divulge much information about their works in progress. So what happens if someone is vidding a song and someone else comes out with a vid to the same song? Is the phobia of using the same song as someone else such that the first person would scrap their work in progress?

[branchandroot]

If any of my plot-bunnies take your fancy, please feel free to use them.

Of the three variations on this theme that I indulge in, I suppose the "This bunny is attacking me!" post is almost an offer for adoption anyway. My bunny corral being a fairly Darwinian place, it's even odds that I'll ever get around to it myself.

The limited-detail posts, which are my usual muse-chatter posts, are to help me work out some specific plot twist. Like talking out loud. I make them public (well, as public as my journal gets) because they seem to entertain my flist. It's hard to imagine anyone taking story inspiration from something that close in scope, though I do occasionally notice that it seems to have influenced someone else's characterization. I have no problem with that, either; I actually find it kind of entertaining to track the cross-influences, insofar as possible.

The broad-outline posts... those are pretty rare, so it's hard to generalize. The last time I made one of those was almost a promissory note. Sort of "yes, I have the idea, it will be kinda like this, but I'm not writing it too fast so don't nag me about it". That probably says something about my relationship with parts of my flist.

I agree wholeheartedly with isiscolo. Ideas are not personal property; none of them occur in a vacuum; it's absurd to claim ownership of a general plotline.

That does not, of course, stop people from trying. But I wouldn't give any credence to their complaints. It helps that I don't participate much in fandom, I admit; keeps me out of the line of fire.

[prillalar]

Interesting, thanks for this. This helps a lot to clarify things for me. Because I really am puzzled about this. (Well, less now that everyone has posted.)

I don't think that ideas can be owned, but it get a little socially awkward over using them at times.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I feel perhaps more comfortable than I should in fandom, finding myself inspired by another's idea. If I want to write a spin-off or AU or the like of someone else's idea, there's this assumption in my head that all I need do is say, "Inspired by so-and-so's story/idea/etc..." and, my goodness, who could object, since we are all writing fanfic, fercryinoutloud? However I know there are many who maintain one should get permission first. Which I understand--what if they were planning to write a sequel/spin-off/something just like that and now you've spoiled all their fun?

I have abandoned stories or story ideas when someone else wrote something so close to what I was working on, it made it impossible for me to go on with mine. Telling myself, "yes, but mine will be different" does not help if I get in a "but not different ENOUGH" mode over those things.

My discomfort reading another's ideas for works-in-progress, or soon-to-be-in-progress, also stems from the way I work myself: I do not, as a rule, tell anyone what the story's about. There's a scene I quote a lot from the play "Collected Stories" where the young author begins to tell her mentor about the next story she wants to write and is cut off by "Don't tell me. Telling relieves the pressure to write it. Go write it." And oh, that's precisely how I work. I have to be so bursting with the need to tell my idea that I've got to get it written, just so that I can do that. Which means no sneak peeks. I've almost never sent a partial story to anyone.

[prillalar]

Telling relieves the pressure to write it

Wow, that's the smartest thing in this whole discussion. Thank you.

[surexit.livejournal.com]

I love doing this, and reading about other people's ideas, especially if it's done in minute detail. Mainy because most of these fics will never get written, but they're such good ideas that they should get preserved somewhere, and because it's fun. And, in the rare cases where the story might one day be written, writing it down sorts it out in my head.

However, I don't give a damn if people want to write the fic. Although I do it in quite a large amount of detail, when I do it, and therefore I'd expect at east a heads-up. Whereas the kind of thing you've given as an example wouldn't need a heads-up, because it's not like it's OMG unique, as it is.

So. Tired. How much of this actually made sense?

[prillalar]

Yes, it made sense. :) And it is often interesting to read the ideas. Maybe I just think about these things too much. *g*

[xsmoonshine.livejournal.com]

(There's already a lot of discussion on the wherefore and whys of posting ideas...=)

But if someone on my friends list posts their idea and then I write a story using it in fairly short order, that's outside the social bounds that we set in fandom
Actually, for all that I lurk and am not really on many lists, I seem to have have a strong impression that several times, people who see a idea post have gotten excited and told the poster, "hey, this is cool, can I write something along these lines too?" Usually the poster is happy to be inspirational. That could be one way of getting around the gauche idea-stealing feeling?

[prillalar]

Yes, and I've done that. But there's one that I can't even remember whose it was in the first place. *g*

I guess I just wondered if people were generally OK with that. Or if they expected to stake out those ideas in that way.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I don't usually post in detail about my fics, but I have before, and I don't hesitate to tell anyone who will listen the details about my fics. But then I don't believe that it's plagiarisim if someone writes a similar idea to mine, so it's never even occured to me that I oughtn't to talk about my writing. I think people in fandom are generally oversensitive about stuff and eager to cry plagiarism when it's no such thing, and it's all a little ridiculous.

[prillalar]

It's not so much plagiarism I'm concerned about, but what the social expectations are about these posted ideas. Is it OK to ask if I can use the ideas? Or not? This is something that doesn't usually happen on mailing lists, just on LJ. So I've been curious. :)