prillalar | One, two, three, four, five

One, two, three, four, five

First, a PSA: Death Note 39 is out.

Second, a rant: Why the hell do people insist on making fake LJ-cuts from community posts? What's wrong with just a simple bloody link? Fake LJ-cuts should DIE!

Third, the actual post:

There are some things about Japanese honorifics that I'm still trying to puzzle out. Any insight would be much appreciated.

1. In Samurai Champloo, Fuu has a pet squirrel whom she calls Momo-san. He doesn't appear that often, so she's only addressed him a few times. Do you think she considers "Momo-san" to be his actual name? If you were writing Champloo fic and wanted to refer to him in the text, would you write "Momo-san" or "Momo"?

2. I am still trying to figure out -kun. I'm not always sure what kind of relationship it implies. Some examples:

In Prince of Tennis, Horio calls Ryoma "Echizen" (his family name) while Kachiro and Katsuo call him "Ryoma-kun" (his given name). They are all in the first year; Horio and Ryoma are in the same class. Is there a big difference in those methods of address?

Also in PoT, in one of the early episodes, Inui (3rd year) refers to Kaidoh (2nd year) as "Kaidoh-kun" in a conversation with Oishi. That's the only time I can recall when he doesn't use just "Kaidoh" either to Kaidoh himself or to someone else. I'm not sure if this is at all significant.

Again, PoT, in the (very stupid) episode where Kaidoh has to pretend to be Ryoma, Momo (2nd year) teases Kaidoh by calling him "Echizen-kun". This enrages Kaidoh (though pretty much everything does). Momo never uses the honorific with Ryoma, he always calls him "Echizen". This makes it seem like "Echizen-kun" is more familiar than just "Echizen". Is that the case?

In Kyou Kara Maou, there's a dolphin who is referred to as "Bandou-kun". Would animals usually get an honorific like that? (I know people often use -chan with pets.)

Again in KKM, Anissina creates lots of crazy magical inventions. When she presents them, they often have rather fancy names, like "Amazing Magical Sheet Folder-kun". Why the honorific on the name of a machine? And why -kun?

In Beck (the anime -- I'm downloading the manga right now), Koyuki (14) calls Ryusuke (16) "Ryusuke-kun". (Ryusuke is his given name.) Ryusuke asks Koyuki to just call him "Ryusuke" because it creeps him out to be called "Ryusuke-kun" by a guy. He says that he knows it's a convention, but he's not that good with Japanese conventions. It seems like he's spent a lot of time in North America. Is it that the honorific seems more intimate to him than just his name?

3. Not about honorifics, but the time has come for me to start studying Japanese. Any recommendations for introductory textbooks and audio resources? I've studied several other languages (French, German, Latin, Greek) but this will be my first non-Indo-European language. I am very interested in grammar, so I'm looking for something with that sort of emphasis. I'm more concerned with comprehension than composition or conversation.

Fourth, some bitching: I spent the weekend at a gaming con (that's not the bitchy part -- the con was great) and am now so exhausted that I spent most of the day lying in bed not quite napping. I was supposed to spend a bunch of time writing the HP story I want to post on Oct 31 and the GW story I have to post on Nov 5, but I didn't. Nor did I do any of that on Friday, when I had the time but wasn't so tired. Ack! I have no self-discipline!

Fifth, good night.

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what are fake lj cuts???

Where people make a link to another page look like an LJ cut. Like this:

( Fake LJ Cut )

I just think it's really stupid.

oh, they just put the parentheses around it? but why??? so people think they're discussing sth in the community but really are commenting in someone else's lj??? agree on the stupid...

*puzzled*

Why the honorific on the name of a machine?

I know very little about Japanese (and eagerly await the answers to your questions), but I just have to say that this made me think of Mr. Coffee.

Hee!

As far as I know, kun is an affectionate, informal term that you use with friends. I don't think you'd use it if you didn't like someone or weren't close to them. San is more formal and polite and is used to show respect as is sama, which is even more formal and polite. I think chan is the same as kun, but used more frequently for girls.

-chan and -kun aren't exactly analogous -- -kun gets used in other situations, like in business it can be used to address junior employees of both genders, afaik. I have a pretty good handle on the honorifics generally, but there are situations like the ones I described where I can't quite figure things out.

Oh, sorry! I didn't understand that it was the specific situations.

I'll just be over here, waking up properly. That'll teach me to post comments too early in the morning.

1. I think -san means 'Mr.'? It's not part of his name; guess it'd be like calling a cat Mr. Binky or something? With the dolphin, -kun is likely the same deal?
I'm sure someone will be along to either elaborate or shoot me down^^
4. Nothing wrong with kittying around? Especially after a rough/wild/busy weekend, as I'll be having soon (Steel Pony Express, Oct. 29-31! Motorcycles and people in leather and denim and boots^^)

I'm usually not so worn out, even after a con. I was entirely useless today!

*remembers High School Japanese*

-kun is the honorific used for boys. So if Hogwarts was in Japan it would be Harry-kun and Ron-kun. They become Harry-san and Ron-san when they become adults though I do not know when this is.. it might be just organic. -San is used for girls and all adults.. so Hermione would always be Hermione-san.

Maybe people would get offended if they think they are adults and people are still calling them -kun.

I do think you would refer to Momo in the fic as Momo-san. I don't really think it would matter as you write in English, but that's what I think. Bit hazy on that one. I know that if Momo was referring to himself he'd never use -san.

Reminds me of a story of a woman I know who went to Japan. She'd go around saying, 'My name is Susan' and everyone would correct her saying "Sue, you don't have to add the -san to the end of your own name!"
"No! My name is Susan!!"
"Ahaha Sue-san you are so silly"

:)

Well, Hermione wouldn't be Hermione-san to her friends. The female ones would probably call her a shortened form of her name + -chan. The male ones might or might not; I've heard that a boy calling a girl -chan implies a romantic relationship, but I'm not sure this is true.

-kun is usually used for little boys, sometimes older ones. I've heard it can also be used from bosses to female subordinates, but this isn't very common as far as I can tell. -kun also seems to be used a lot for lesbians and tomboys in anime.

-san would not normally be used for small girls, and I think it would be questionable for teenagers. It also wouldn't be used by adults in a casual situation.

When referring to inanimate objects, I think it's all pretty random.

When referring to inanimate objects, I think it's all pretty random.

That's the one that seemed the most strange to me. Thanks!

Yeah, you're right about the chan thing. I totally forgot about that.. god knows how, when we're inundated with it by all the 14 year old fangirls. "Wika-chan!" I think they call me.

I always thought -kun was used for boys right up until they were adults.. I don't know how old that is. My source is my old 7th grade text book, so go figure. The boys in 7th grade were told to call each other -kun. :\

I've always wondered when a boy decided it was time everyone called him -san.

I guess I've been taught a certain super 'proper' way of Japanese at High School.. probably outdated. The way that my mother still learns to say, "How do you do" in her ESL class.

It also wouldn't be used by adults in a casual situation.
Wouldn't they get so used to it they would automatically add -san to the end of their friends's names anyway? As if it were part of the name?

I know that if Momo was referring to himself he'd never use -san.

Particularly since he's a squirrel! *g*

I do have a general understanding of honorific use, but the nuances, like in the examples, sometimes escape me.

*laugh* You never know, he might be a talking squirrel! I have no idea what anime you were talking about :)

I totally agree with you on the fake LJ cuts. They are so lame, I don't know why people bother.

As for the honorifics thing, I thought about it, then decided to do some searching the Internet for various sources. If you feel like it, check out these links (if you're only going to go to one check out the first one):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific
http://www.tuxedomask.com/jp/lesson4.php
http://www.gozoku.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nest/suffix.html
http://japanese.about.com/blqow38.htm

I hope they help somewhat.

Regarding your specific examples of -kun usage, Kachiro and Katsuo call Ryoma "Ryoma-kun" probably because they see him as friends, so it's a way to indicate closeness. Horio probably calls him Echizen because he feels somewhat superior and wants to distance himself. The other two instances are probably the use of -kun as a way to be condescending. Because superiors and adults can use -kun to address subordinates and children, when -kun is added it can emphasize a real or perceived difference in status.

BTW, people use the -kun, -chan, and -san suffixes on pets. In my own family we used the -kun suffix to address a female pet. ^_^;

Thanks for the links. :) I've been to some of those sites and other similar ones before. It's when I'm trying to work out the nuances of specific relationships that I get puzzled. Thanks for your insight here -- that helps a lot.

-kun is an intimate way of addressing inferiors -- someone who is younger, or lower ranked. Say, a teacher to a student, or an employer to an employee to whom they want to show some measure of favour. It's less formal than -san, and supposes some sort of genial, perhaps mentoring, relationship. -kun is traditionally only used with males, but it's starting to become non-gender-specific.

It's also used between (young male) friends who consider themselves social equals, and by parents when addressing older male children.

As far as dropping the -kun, there's a real trend now in Japan of doing away with the honorifics -- as society becomes more agalitarian, the usage of such is seen as ...almost embarassing by younger people. I wouldn't think it all odd to see kids just addressing each other by name, and only adding the honorific when they're trying to emphasise something.

D'oh! *E*galitarian. *E*.

As far as dropping the -kun, there's a real trend now in Japan of doing away with the honorifics -- as society becomes more agalitarian, the usage of such is seen as ...almost embarassing by younger people.

That's interesting. That might explain the Beck example, where Ryusuke gets wigged when Koyuki calls him Ryusuke-kun.

Might also be an age thing -- 16 would be around the age when boys start to insist on -san rather than -kun. -kun makes them feel childish. Really, on all the examples you cite, it's hard to say without seeing the original japanese text -- I've noticed that translators often leave off honorifics that are in the original manga.

My Japanese course in college used this textbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4789009637/qid=1098773575/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2295435-0200800?v=glance&s=books), which I found useful and easy to follow. The reviewers suggest a few others, too, so you might just want to take this as a starting point.

I can vouch for the speed with which the "Genki" line of books accustoms you to using kanji mixed in with hiragana and katakana, if that's important to you. (Which it probably should be; the difference between hiragana and kanji is unhappily like the phonics/whole word debate, with the former giving you the tools to work things out and the latter just requiring a heckuva lot of memorization.)

Basically, once you learn the kanji for something, they'll just keep using it forever, forcing you to learn it. I liked that. *g*

Echoing the poster above -- d'oh! I'm guessing you want audio comprehension, not visual, in which case these books probably aren't what you want. Although they'd be great if you were taking up manga instead of anime. :)

Awesome, thanks! And I'm looking for both audio and visual, so it's all good. It's true that anime and manga are the catalyst here, but I've been wanting to study Japanese for years (and Russian, but that will have to wait) and I want to do it properly.

i guess the previous 24 posts already covered it, but -kun is affectionate, so he does not want to be called -kun by another guy and -kun is not consistently used.

if you wrote your story in english, you would not attach -san to the name, unless in appelation/direct speech.

fake lj-cuts only bother me when they go clearly against the rules of a community (and nobody tells them off for it).

if you wrote your story in english, you would not attach -san to the name, unless in appelation/direct speech.

It was the pet aspect that made me wonder. Like calling your cat Mr Fluffy or something.

in that case you really have to decide. i know that the translators of maison ikkoku let the heroine call her dog "mr soichiro", for example, but whether she would have done that if she were american and not japanese is doubtful.

well, this example might help you if you wonder whether the -san was an exception though. obviously, it wasn't.

I'm doing the Pimsleur audio course and am liking it. I found torrents on Suprnova in the misc section, IIRC. I also found the MLC Japanese learning material (in the anime section, oddly enough) and have found it to be very helpful.

Some links I've found handy:

http://www.nuthatch.com/kanjicards/
500 kanji that you can either drill on in flashcard form online or print out.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/japanese.html
Jim Breen's huge page o' links.
http://wwwjdic.ics.hawaii.edu/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1R for kanji look up.
http://www.mindspring.com/~kimall/Japanese/index.html
Japanese language student's basic guide to Japanese, with a focus on making it comprehensible to the western brain. She also has this excellent list of reference material: http://www.mindspring.com/~kimall/Japanese/refs.html
http://www.timwerx.net/language/jpverbs/index.htm
Verbs and more verbs, in all their forms. Very helpful.

Just about every course/text available is going to focus on being polite. However, the language used in mangas and anime is terribly casual (and often quite rude) so you might also want to pick up Beyond Polite Japanese by Akihiko Yonekawa. This book has been a life saver when looking for slang words not covered in dictionaries.

Thanks so much. :) Very useful.

Those are some sticky ones, aren't they? Let's see...

With pets, the honorific, if there is one, does seem to be part of the whole name, not situational like it would be with a person.

As someone else noted, Ryouma-kun is more a polite friends usage, while Echizen is Horio being his casual, mannerless self. What he's asserting by using the family name alone for a classmate is a degree of equality. Little snot.

The one where Momo calls Kaidou Echizen-kun is fuzzier. There I think it's a taunt because that is the form that is most proper to Momo and Echizen's relationship. Momo is usually more casual, probably because he accepts Echizen on his own terms. In this case, though, it's the way a proper/formal senpai would address his kouhai. If I were Kaidou, being addressed so explicitly as junior by my biggest rival would have pissed me off, too.

Both animals and objects do, sometimes, get honorifics, but it's a kind of flaky thing to do. Especially with the objects. Perhaps I should say childish, rather than flaky, though it can also be tongue in cheek personificaiton. For example, the way FMA fandom started referring to Roy's office furniture as desk-san and couch-san.

Not having seen Beck, this is a stab in the dark, but it sounds like Ryusuke doesn't like having another teenage boy address him by the form that's more common for a girl their age to use. That is, a female classmate would still address a boy she's friends with as X-kun, while a male classmate would probably be dropping the -kun at about that point unless he's an exceedingly polite boy.

-kun really is an odd one. Superior to inferior it's almost always familiar, but it's a formal kind of familiar. For, say, younger to older male it can also be the step between Firstname-san and no suffix, thus perserving a degree of formality in an otherwise close relationship of some kind.

I've found Barron's Japanese Grammar useful, if very basic. I have yet to find a good text that provides, say, vocabulary drills. If you find any good books, let me know?

With pets, the honorific, if there is one, does seem to be part of the whole name, not situational like it would be with a person.

That's the one that's giving me the most trouble. If I do write the relevant story, I think I'll make a decision one way or another and then write a note explaining myself.

Thanks for your insight! It's very helpful.

I am using the Minna no Nihongo books, both the Main Textbook which is entirely in Japanese and the Translation and Grammar Book. I find them very good, though I don't know how helpful they are for self-study, as I do a class language course. I am very much against books that use romaji, since hiragana and katakana are a must for serious Japanese learning.

For Kanji learning I am using Remembering the Kanji. This method might not work for everybody, but I find it very useful.

Cool, thanks. :)

I am very much against books that use romaji, since hiragana and katakana are a must for serious Japanese learning.

That seems to be the current thought. And what's the point, otherwise?

Hands down, it's Japanese the Spoken Language all the way. The other major introductory texts are Genki and Nakama (and probably a few others) and they all focus on themes and activities. JSL is organized around grammar. It has detailed essays on context and implication.

Oh, and JSL does use romanization, but I am in strong disagreement that a good book must include the Japanese writing systems. I've used them all in classes and JSL is the only one with really intellectual explanations of the grammar. You can learn the alphabets from a piece of paper with the letters written on. Kanji are a pain anyway and there are a million books for learning them that will cover more than any introductory textbook would.

I've been told before that in certain contexts, -san can be more of a term of endearment than the equivalent of "Mr." or "Ms." For instance, in Azumanga Daioh Chiyo-chan addresses her dog as Tadakichi-san, and my more Japanese-savvy friends told me to think of it as "dear Tadakichi," not "Mr. Tadakichi." I'd guess something similar is going on with Momo-san.

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One, two, three, four, five

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Book-larnin'

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momo-san

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grammar book

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