prillalar | On the subject of Evil.

On the subject of Evil.

I finally remembered what I wanted to post about, that other day when I was thinking about Lucius Malfoy.

Mmm, Lucius.

OK, getting hold of myself now. I was thinking about characterization and about HP villains. In any fandom with more than one canon source, you have to decide which you're going to follow when you write. For HP, I, like most fen I know, go with the books. I don't even picture the actors when I write, or when I re-read the novels. Except for Lucius Malfoy.

Now, I'm sure that part of that is that Jason is the sexiest thing since James Spader and I could listen to him read the phone book and watch him flare his nostrils for fucking ever and not get bored.

But another part of it is that Movie!Lucius is interesting. He's compelling. He's capable. I think that these characteristics are sorely lacking in JKR's villains.

Think about your favourite villains -- books, TV, movies. The good ones both attract and repel us at the same time. We enjoy their presence in the story. They are good at what they do. The better ones engage our compassion and make us identify with them. And the best ones do that for the hero as well. It makes for a much richer conflict.

I find JKR's villains uninteresting, unattractive, and uninspired. I think one of the reasons we want to make fanon Draco smart and attractive and capable is that by doing so, we are giving Harry a worthy rival. Someone worth striving against. Someone worth defeating.

Something that's been missing from the story so far -- and I hope it will make an appearance before the end -- is Harry's temptation to the Dark Side. None of the villains so far has tried to turn him (unless I've forgotten something) and none would be likely to make him consider it. There is nothing seductive about JKR's evil.

And, really, isn't seductive just what evil should be?

Hence, Lucius Malfoy.

Mmm.

Postscript
If the GoF movie can make Voldemort half as creepy-wrong-sexy-disturbing-fascinating-fucked-up as Orochimaru, I will be in heaven.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I think, really, it's because Jason *gets* the books. Maybe it's because he's just a smidge younger than the other grownup actors? He's closer in age to Chris Rankin than to Maggie Smith, for example, but that can't be the be-all-and-end-all of it. Perhaps he fought for his characterisation in a way that we haven't heard, say, of Alan Rickman doing, and in getting his perspective on the screen it had an extra dose of his passion for the role and the books too?

I think he had a good sense of what the character needed. I remember reading about how he insisted on that wardrobe instead of something more conservative.

He was note-perfect. I just wish his character were more like that in the books as well.

Amen to this whole post really, especially the Jason Isaacs part.

It's so hard to get past the pretty!

I thought Tom Riddle had some of the "come to the Dark Side!" thing going on?

And I think Umbridge is a great villain, though quintessentially not sexy.

Did Tom? I know that he was fascinated with Harry, but I didn't get the sense that he was trying to turn Harry to his side. But I haven't read CoS for some months so I could be forgetting something.

And I think Umbridge is a great villain, though quintessentially not sexy.

She was certainly the best yet. And I think that's because she was good at what she did. And because she was so *mundane*. Not ultimate evil, trying to take over the world, just a cruel person.

Well, there's a weird sort of flattery to Harry mixed in with Tom's complaints about Ginny the boring little girl. I don't think I could support anything more specific.

Unfortunately the whole prophecy thing tends to overshadow Umbridge, which is sad, because what could be scarier than those china kitten plates?

Umbridge, I think, is a direct descendant of the James Bond villainess Rosa Klebb.

*shiver*

I am rarely repelled by my favorite villains - instead I am captivated and intrigued and I generally enjoy them more and find them far more sympathetic and interesting than the heroes and heroines. Examples are the villains in Alias, La Femme Nikita, HP, BtVS, and some other shows I can't think of at the moment. Unfortunately for literature, we're rarely shown the point of view of the villain in a compelling way, but I bet that if I could find a compelling villain in a novel, I'd be more interested in the villainous deeds than the good ones.

Of course, just as often as heroes are heroic because it's the right thing to do, villains are evil just because they are, which is not interesting at all, unfortunately.

The villains in Buffy were amazing, the Mayor especially. I feel all wistful just thinking about him and Faith.

Of course, just as often as heroes are heroic because it's the right thing to do, villains are evil just because they are, which is not interesting at all, unfortunately.

Good point. Such extreme polarization of Good and Evil is just boring. Got to mix it up a little.

This was interesting because I've been thinking about Mizuki lately (okay, not so much thinking as I haven't been able to get him out of my mind. He's so...purple.). I don't think anyone really qualifies as a villain in TnO, because they're all children, they all have character flaws, and the series seems more based on recognising that competitive kids their ages can sometimes be brats and short-sighted rather than actively setting up opposing schools as Good and Evil. Mizuki comes closer than most of the characters though, except perhaps Atobe, in his willful prioritising of victory over his teammates' health. At the same time, however, I want to think that he taught Yuuta the shot-that-I-forget-the-name-of and was so cold to him after he lost the S3 prefecturals round because he cares for Yuuta. The idea being that he drives Yuuta because he recognises how much Yuuta wants to beat Fuji and so gives him the means to do so, at whatever cost, and to some extent, Mizuki internalises that desire himself. Hence the cold shoulder after Yuuta loses to Echizen.

Ooh, Mizuki or Kirihara? I'm not sure who's evil-er in my book. (And they look so similar.) Mizuki seems cold and self-serving to me, but he hurts people in the service of some other goal. Kirihara just seems cruel to me, because he likes it. Which is worse? Hard to say.

I think Mizuki does care for Yuuta. But I wonder if that's something he'd rather not feel. I get the sense that he wants Yuuta to be his protégé, so that when people see how good Yuuta is, they'll acknowledge Mizuki as the one who made him.

Oh, Mizuki! You are indeed very purple. I could watch you and Inui talk for hours...

I'd actually completely forgotten about Kirihara (I haven't gotten to the Rikkai arc yet in the anime and my manga only goes through D2 in the Seigaku/Rikkai match)! Mizuki and Kirihara are both such odd children - Mizuki has warmer flashes here and there where he seems to animate and shows himself to be a rather vain and proud boy (e.g. when Fuji ignores him completely), but a boy with a personality beyond his drive to win. Kirihara is just bizarre - he seems harmless enough when he oversleeps on the bus or nags Tezuka for a match, and then he transforms into a monster on the courts. I don't think anyone outside of the Seigaku team is given enough screen time to be truly developed as a consistent villain, but Kirihara probably comes closest because of his gratuitously cruel streak. The role of antagonist or foil to Echizen would probably be filled Tezuka, Fuji, or Nanjiroh, if only because tennis is such a driving part of Echizen's personality, along with his need to be the best. Yet, none of them are villains in any sense of the word, nor is any one of them a complete antagonist or foil to Echizen.

*sigh* When it comes to writing fic or reading subtext into the eps, I wish that the series had been kept to the original high school setting, instead of being switched to junior high. For starters, it makes writing about the characters in relationships seem much less implausible (true love in junior high? Not likely. Sensitive, caring boys attuned to each other in junior high? Even less likely.), and it allows for more complex readings of the characters. As a high schooler, I can see Mizuki wanting Yuuta to be his friend but also his creation, with multiple motivations of pride, hubris, and affection. As a junior high schooler, not so much. And let's not begin with Inui's data tennis.

Mizuki is so purple. Tezuka is also so purple. Clearly, this means something. ^^

your use of the word capable has caught me - why has this never occurred to me? that is exactly what makes a villain terrifying, obviously, but seductive and attractive too...

you are wise.

and jason isaacs is foxy.

There's no glory in beating someone weaker than you. Sure, it might have to be done, but it doesn't usually make a good story. Unless the protagonist is Bugs Bunny. *g*

You're absolutely right about JKR's villains: I only *wish* Book!Lucius was as compelling as Movie!Lucius. Because, really? What's the point of evil (in fiction) unless there's something attractive about it (and no, I don't even mean physically).

This is why I have serious doubts that Death Eater meetings are just excuses for Voldemort to practice his skills with Cruciatus; nobody would be flocking to his side if his charisma didn't outweigh the fear factor.

This is why I have serious doubts that Death Eater meetings are just excuses for Voldemort to practice his skills with Cruciatus; nobody would be flocking to his side if his charisma didn't outweigh the fear factor.

Yes, good point. We'll just have to read between the lines.

Or they're there because they each see some possibility of taking his place. I always thought of the DEs a bit like the line-of-Bane Sith in SW: you're the apprentice *until* you can off the Master and take his place. It is, at the very least, what I think Lucius is doing there.

One word - Angelus. IMO, the ultimate villain. He was *good* at what he did, and he enjoyed it. I think JKR's afraid to make her villains too likeable, because she's playing to such a large audience - it's a pity.

Jason Isaacs and Kenneth Branagh are the only two people who's acting I've been satisfied with in the movies. The *only* two.

Angelus was awesome! Angel was so tedious by comparison. *g*

MMmmmm...Angelus!

But it's like when Spike and Dru were first on Buffy. Joss didn't get why everyone liked them, but once he understood it, did he ever take it and run with it! God bless him. ::pats him on the head::

Your comments on Movie!Lucius are interesting because I don't like Book!Lucius at all. He pretty loathsome how he kowtows to Voldemort at the end of GoF and in general I don't find him appealing at all. Whoever said it up thread, I agree, Jason Isaacs gets it.

Umbridge is an effective villain, I think. She's pretty loathsome and she absolutely gives me the creeps. I think JKR did a good job with her because sometimes it's a problem if the reader likes the villains too much. There should be a little "boo, hiss" factor when a villain enters the scene. Umbridge actually scares me more than Voldie.

I also am intrigued with Bellatrix. I find her oddly compelling. Interesting that JKR's female villains are interesting, but female protagonists--save for Hermione--are dull, but that's just my opinion.

I'm very taken with Bellatrix, too, actually. I forgot about her when I was pondering.

Interesting that JKR's female villains are interesting, but female protagonists--save for Hermione--are dull, but that's just my opinion.

That's an interesting thought -- and I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I realized that I forgot about Luna when I made that blanket damnation of JKR's female protagonists. I think she has a lot potential to be an interesting character, more interesting than just having a knack for accessorizing with vegetables. But the rest: Ginny, Cho, Lavender, Parvati, et al, just bore me to tears and the adults aren't much better, although I suppose Molly and MacGonnagal have their moments.

The good ones both attract and repel us at the same time. We enjoy their presence in the story. They are good at what they do. The better ones engage our compassion and make us identify with them. And the best ones do that for the hero as well.

Just imagine me turning purple, with both hands clapped over my mouth, squirming and giggling and trying desperately not to spoil you. (:

Whee! I look forward to this, whatever it may be. :)

no.

i always love the villains in american movies. but to be a good villain, i should hate them. real villains are not interesting, they are just bad. there are too many in real life. if they are alluring as well, it would be unbearable.

so i am also sad about ralph fiennes as voldemort. i simply will not be able to take the films seriously at all, which i hoped to be able to do after the third. and i am in a minority of one hoping jkr sticks to her creed - that evil is not sexy.

hm. disagree much?

Interesting! What are some villains that you like, then?

I don't think that a villain has to be sexy, but I think that in fiction, s/he should be somewhat compelling, at least in this kind of story.

good subject - so interesting that i was tempted to leave the mail languishing in my intray until it was too late to answer. i am tempted to search for my boxes with writings, esp. on walt disney and british actors and such.

it really very much depends on the kind of fiction and for what i am reading it. my reaction to lucius and voldemort is highly influenced by fanfiction - i seem to be the only one around agreeing with jkr on her characters. i love jason, i love film lucius - but he is not evil (enough). he does not frighten me at all. the book lucius, who is obviously ku-klux-klan and irredeemable, is also boring. book-draco is not compelling at all, as there is never any hesitation before nastiness etc. i digress ...

as mentioned, i love the villains best - but that is because the stories are clichéd and do not work for me. as the heroes are boring, we turn to the villains. see the flaw? we live in a world were fiction is fucked up. it is a truth universally acknowledged that brits play the villains because they are better actors, and better actors like to play villains because those roles are meatier ... uhm?

your post made me stand up and openly voice my changed opinion for the first time. give me flawed protagonists, but don't make me side with the villain. if you do, you end up with thousands of fangirls squeeling "voldie" and having hazy notions about what's right or wrong. stop me, stop me,or i will go on about them growing up not knowing when they are being abused by their fathers or partners because they find nastyness sexy argh. stop.

ok, i think you are/were into buffy? to take those villains, i loved, loved, loved the trio - precisely because they were often bumbling, always funny, and even in their worst deeds not scary. they were criticised for that. i hated maggie - and i was scared of her. really scared. good human villain. i disliked and did not care for adam and the master - also good villains in that they did not attract me at all, but not ideal, i agree with you on the need for life. which brings me to glory - i was never as breathlessly afraid as when she was hunting them down, as i saw no way out. i think it is easier with female villains, as i tend to only fall for men, so to make glory very appealing (not!not in a physical way, but by her exaggerated quirks and habits etc.) did not take away from me wishing her dead and being afraid - as a villain should. make. us. feel. (well, until we came to ben, who is like adam/the master again, in that i disliked him and did not care for him).

i used to love alan rickman's roles. classic. same for ralph fiennes and jude law's and now jason's - but always, always i was siding with them and not caring for the hero. i was not agreeing with the story. the story failed.

phew. typed really quickly and before i have time to rething will post this and hope to have made myself a little bit clearer to you.

Just to bring a little variety, I love book!Lucius and can't stand his movie counterpart. "Compelling" and "capable" is dumb and boring. Give me Bertie Wooster Does World Domination any day.

Bertie Wooster Does World Domination

Hee! I think I could enjoy that, if it were from his POV. Anyhow, what's Bertie without Jeeves?

Dear Lord! That had me laughing 'til I cried!

Orochimaru!

Naruto has excellent villains. They are all so damn cool.

They surely are. :)

I think he's part of what makes movie!Lucius so magnetic is that Jason Isaacs is a consummate actor who seems to specialize in bad guys. The other villains he's played--I'm thinking especially of Tavington in The Patriot--have that same sly, sneering quality that is both attractive and disturbing at the same time. Tavington's a cold-blooded killer, and so (I believe--feel free to contradict me) is Lucius. There is no morality to what he does, no sympathy for his victims...and that very lack of humanity, mixed with an almost impossible amount of charm, makes him a compelling villain.

Naraku in Inuyasha, Sauron (as Annatar) in The Silmarillion, ~~Count Dooku in Attack of the Clones~~, Tsukishiro in Dragon Sword and Wind Child--they all have that charming-but-utterly-amoral quality of villains. And that's why (to me) they stand out among all the others.

There is no morality to what he does, no sympathy for his victims...and that very lack of humanity, mixed with an almost impossible amount of charm, makes him a compelling villain.

Charisma will take you a long, long way. :)

...Especially when you look like Lucius. ;)

(nosing along from the 'snitch')

'Mmm, Lucius' indeed. :)

Before the CoS movie I never really liked Lucius, and it was Isaac's portrayal that brought me into the fandom. I'm not sure whether that was because something was missing from the books, though. Re-reading CoS, it's all there (minus the cane and the hair), but seeing it onscreen through my eyes instead of Harry's made all the difference. That was when I recognised him as an embodiment of an archetype that had haunted me since I can remember anything.

In my fics, I draw some inspiration from comments JI made about the experience of embodying Lucius, and I definitely draw on his Lucius-voice. But I try not to write movie!Lucius. Why? Partly because it would feel too personal - maybe one day some fairy godmother will grant my dream of sitting in a pub with JI swapping notes on Lucius characterisation, and I'd rather be able to enjoy the guy's irreverent sense of humour than be thinking in the back of my mind ohmigodiwrotethataboutyou.

Anyway. Back in the real world... Basically, I don't want to write stories about Jason, I want to write about Lucius. Also, I don't agree with JI's interpretation of the Lucius/Draco relationship, and I tend to see Lucius as being rather thinner than Jason!Lucius.

Personally, and indulging in some shameless pop-psychology, I think part of JKR's problems with her villains is that she hasn't really come to terms with whatever she draws on to write them. Draco is not a nice character, but she speaks about him with a remarkable lack of sympathy/empathy. It's almost as if she can't let go and think about the situation from his point of view - hence, a cardboard villain and a frustrated fandom. But oh, how I did cackle when I saw her comment in the Edinburgh Book Festival transcript about her friend thinking Lucius was sexy!

Personally, and indulging in some shameless pop-psychology, I think part of JKR's problems with her villains is that she hasn't really come to terms with whatever she draws on to write them. Draco is not a nice character, but she speaks about him with a remarkable lack of sympathy/empathy. It's almost as if she can't let go and think about the situation from his point of view - hence, a cardboard villain and a frustrated fandom.

That's an interesting thought. I've often felt while reading that JKR was directing us to dislike Draco and Snape, rather than just giving us Harry's POV. And she just doesn't seem to understand why everyone else doesn't feel the same way.

I've often felt while reading that JKR was directing us to dislike Draco and Snape, rather than just giving us Harry's POV.

Hmmm. I've not been aware of that in the books so much - perhaps because she does succeed in making me dislike the Slytherins (Lucius excepted, now that I've got to know him) when I'm reading canon. But in all of her interviews, definitely. It's as if she's afraid she's failed to get her point across so she needs to tell us how she'd like us to interpret the characters, rather than using the audience reaction as a jumping-off point to better understanding her own writing. I suppose that's a great temptation to a published author, who has been set up 'above' the readers - in fandom, where writers comment on each other, perhaps we're more open to receiving unexpected interpretations because we're all more or less in the same boat.

And she just doesn't seem to understand why everyone else doesn't feel the same way.

Or that being intrigued by a character or enjoying his or her actions in fiction doesn't necessarily imply that people approve of those actions and attitudes. Though, it just occurred to me, perhaps she's mainly concerned about her younger readers who (she thinks?) may be less likely to make such distinctions.

James Spader

And here I thought I was so alone in my adoration of him. *hearts*

Harry's temptation to the Dark Side.

Yes yes yes YES YES!

There is nothing seductive about JKR's evil.

I beg to differ. I think it just depends on your disposition and your position in life. And I think Harry's slowly working his way closer to such a reckoning. Frankly, he's in a position that could be considered worse than Tom's, which is what it's attemping to mirror. But because of his choices - for whatever reasons - he hasn't crossed over yet. I think it's only a matter of time til he's offered that choice though.

One must always bold James Spader. :)

I do hope that Harry gets his chance to turn to evil in the next book. Not that I hope he *does* turn, of course. But all heroes need that oppotunity.

Postscript
If the GoF movie can make Voldemort half as creepy-wrong-sexy-disturbing-fascinating-fucked-up as Orochimaru, I will be in heaven.

*hugs*

Hee! Thanks. :) I so fucking love Orochimaru.

I really like movie!Lucius -- he's so exactly what I pictured when I read the books.

I agree with you that JKR's villains are not especially capable, and I think her books might be better if they were. I mean, the graveyard scene in GoF is powerful and gripping, and why? Because, for once, Voldemort comes oh-so-close to success. Similarly, Chamber of Secrets is quite creepy because of what Tom does to, and through, Ginny. It would be great if book six let Voldemort achieve something, especially as we all know he's going to meet his inevitable defeat in book 7.

It takes away from what she's trying to do, as well - she wants us to hate her villains, and yet it's difficult to hate or fear somebody quite so useless. If anything, they seem like the underdog, and start to garner reader sympathy.

I admit to finding Tom Riddle (as different from Voldemort) quite fascinating, because that's rather a painful past he has, with the orphanage and his father actively rejecting him and so on. He was also sufficiently charming and manipulative to gain Ginny's trust and then turn it to his own ends. However, I can understand why he might be seen as incapable -- not only failing to do anything to Harry when he had Harry's wand, but that whole scheme with the Muggleborns and the Basilisk fifty years ago seems a bit woolly. Clearly he didn't want to *kill* Muggleborns because that would lead to Hogwarts being closed - was he hoping they would leave in fear because they were being targeted and petrified? Doesn't quite make sense to me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

On the subject of Evil.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

Villains

Re: Villains

i surprise even myself

Re: i surprise even myself

Re: i surprise even myself

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject