Foul deeds will rise

[prillalar]

On Buffy and on Angel, they've been kicking around this word "murderer". So, I thought I'd do a tally.

Willow: Warren

Faith: various, including the deputy mayor, which was an accident, and that professor, which clearly was not

Andrew: Jonathan sniff

Giles: Ben

Fred & Gunn: between them, Professor Sydell

Angel: Holland Manners, et alia, by locking them in

I don't count Spike's recent rampage as he was controlled at the time.

Did I miss anybody? That's quite a lot, really.

Comments

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Anya Those frat boys. She was a demon at the time, and they undid it all -- does that count?

Buffy The Knights of Whatever in S5. I think the General says she killed 16 of them? One of the things that *still* bothers me about that season is that those guys were fully human and no one *ever* says anything about that.

What about Spike's pre-chip murders? Do vampires count as murderers, or is that purely a human-on-human thing?

[prillalar]

I'd completely forgotten about Buffy and the knights. Not sure whether to count them, though, as they were in combat when they died. It's definitely significant, but I don't think it's murder.

I'm only counting people who are meant to be good, so pre-chip Spike doesn't count. But Angel does, since he was souled and a champion at the time.

I'm not sure about Anya! I think we should count it, since she was supposed to have changed. Clearly, she felt that she'd done something very wrong.

Personally, I think that whole human vs demon thing is a huge double-standard. Is it worse to kill Warren than Clem?

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

It's weird -- the show is in some ways *dealing* with that double standard, at least in the dialogue. There have been several ironic references, particularly in the last year or so, to the inherent inconsistencies in the Buffyverse's moral universe (didn't Andrew just recently have a line about how everyone hanging out at Buffy's used to be evil, or was a murderer, or something?).

And yet, the *action* on the show, its actual plots, still insist: Demons Bad, Humans Good.

I think they're using that magic word "redemption" as a way to whitewash the whole dilemma, but I don't quite buy it.

[prillalar]

Yeah, it was Andrew's remark to First!Jonathan about how a lot of Buffy's gang were murderers that made me ponder. And then Jonathan came back and asked why Andrew was the only one she made seek redemption. A valid point.

Maybe they know -- re demon vs human -- that they've written themselves into a corner. Maybe that's why all these human deaths have racked up. If you kill, you're tainted, even if you kill for a good reason.

Oh, I remember on Millennium when Frank's wife Catherine was kidnapped by this guy who had been stalking them. Frank tracked them down and brutally killed the guy, did what he had to do to protect his family. And afterwards, Catherine left him, not because she didn't love him, but because she couldn't deal with what he'd done. But if he hadn't, I wonder if she'd have had just the same reaction.

Now I miss Frank. :(