Parts per thousand.

[prillalar]

I sent off both my Woobies of Destiny and Remix challenge stories this morning. I'm free! Free! For about a day, maybe.

There's a restless feeling that comes with this kind of challenge story. I'm in the limbo between finishing and public posting. The work is done, the gratification is yet to come. Dammit, where's my feedback?

So, in lieu of that, let me pose a question: How much M/F content does it take to make a slash story also a het story?

If you were writing a story which was meant not to contain any het, for whatever reason -- list rules, challenge request, personal slasher's code -- would you consider that any of these scenarios cross the "het line"? Assume that all stories also have significant slash content and likely explicit M/M or F/F sex.

* Jack and Daniel are beginning a relationship. Daniel has some brief thoughts about Sha're and what she would think about it.

* Draco is dating Pansy because it's expected of him, but he's fucking Harry every chance he gets. Draco kisses her distractedly, but he's looking past her shoulder to lock eyes with Harry across the room.

* Erin comes on to Markus, but he brushes her off because of his torrid affair with Jeremiah.

* Talia and Ivanova have a fight. Talia talks to Garibaldi at a bar and his obvious interest in her cheers her up.

* Han goes to bed with Luke, but he's thinking about Leia the whole time.

* Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head.

Thoughts?

Comments

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

The B5 reads *slightly* het to me, but the Star Wars reads very het. The others...well, apart from the XF (which is just, you know, fucking and killing. *g*), they all read as pretty slash-centric to me because the primary focus is a same sex one.

[prillalar]

I just threw that one in because I like to write about Scully shooting Mulder in the head. *g*

[codyne]

The Star Wars one, probably. Depends how intrusive and explicit Han's thoughts are. The XF one, definitely. But you knew that. :) The others seem pretty safely slash to me.

[prillalar]

Oh, your icon boys are so sparkly!

Ahem, I meant to say -- yeah, it's tricky. There have been a lot of different opinions expressed in the comments. Which is interesting and useful.

[penknife.livejournal.com]

To my mind, the Draco and Mulder stories are definitely het as well as slash. I'd code them as "Draco/Pansy, Draco/Harry" and "Mulder/Krycek, Mulder/Scully" rather than just "Draco/Harry" and "Mulder/Krycek." The Han/Luke one probably is, too, if the Han/Leia relationship is a major part of the story (even if only from inside Han's head.)

I don't think the others necessarily are, though. I think the test I'm applying in my head is, if I wrote this much m/f content into a story with no other relationships or sex, would I be able to call the story gen? If so, I think you can safely call it not-het.

But I also think there's something of a double standard; if you switched the sexes to make all of these scenarios slashy moments in het stories, I think a lot of people would say they make the stories slash (or at least that the stories "contain slash content.")

[rivkat.livejournal.com]

I agree on the classifications; my standard is "actual, present-day sexual activity," not stuff in the past. Though in a story where the only sexual content was in the past, if a character pondered that past I'd probably call it het/slash rather than gen. As for reversing the fucking-girl-thinking-about-guy thing, I actually would hesitate to call that story slash, just as I'd hesitate to say the Han/Luke story contains het. But I haven't thought enough about this, I guess. I default to whatever's going on in the present of the story, and when there's nothing going on, I have to equivocate.

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

The Jeremiah one is SO OBVIOUSLY GAY.

Dude -- have you *seen* the end of S2 yet?

[prillalar]

Dude, I *have*. I have seen it *all*.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Stargate: not het
HP: I'd say that has het content. Dating and kissing.
Erin: nope, not het.
B5: that's prehet, so not real.
SW: Oh yeah. Definite het content (I think i wrote that one)
X-Files: yep, het. OT3.

[prillalar]

Everyone on TXF was Mulder-sexual anyhow. *g* It's hardly fair to classify it further.

[http://users.livejournal.com/oceana_/]

Personally, I like a bit of het in my slash stories, but since you asked...
-SG1: very slashy. It would be totally ridiculous if Daniel forget about Sha're the minute he starts something with Jack. Same goes for Jack/Sarah.

-HP: kissing is het. Unless it's genderbending or a drunk mistake, and I'd have to take a closer look at the last one to judge if it is het or slash.

-Whoever Markus and Jeremiah are, they are obviously very gay.

- Whoever Talia is, she does not have to worry about being to het-y for a slash story. Every women loves a bit of attention from an attractive man.

- Han does NOT think about Leia when he is fucking Luke. Unless we are talking threesome. This Han is in denial, and I would hate to read this in a slash story. Ugh, het.

-XF: Mulder is a slut. He deserves to be shot. ;-) Scully and Krycek can now have threesomes with Methos.

The perfect example (for me) of a slash story with a het scene that is so clearly slash despite that scene is Francesca's TS story "Mia". But then again, Jim is so gay that he could fuck women all his life, and never even touch Blair, it'd still be slash. ;-)

This is fun. More scenarios, please.

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

-Whoever Markus and Jeremiah are, they are obviously very gay.

Truer words were never spoken. Why EVERYONE isn't watching this show is beyond me.

subliminal:watchJeremiahit'sonShowtimesometimesbutyoucandownloaditandplusthere'sDVDswatchJeremiahthey aresoterriblyterriblygay

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Erin comes on to Markus, but he brushes her off because of his torrid affair with Jeremiah.

Isn't that canon? :-D

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

This is what I'm SAYING, except I don't think Hal's *seen* that episode yet. So she's just channeling JMS and a tiny slashy genius.

Either way. *g*

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Since any story that references a same-sex relationship counts as slash, these are all slash with the possible exception of the Krycek/Mulder/Scully one, because that's either canon or it's deathfic.

Okay. ;-) No, I see what you're saying, but in terms of categorisation, people who hate slash so much they don't want to see any kind of same-sex relationship in the story still tend to hate more heartily and more vocally than people who hate het.

Still, to answer your question on its own terms:

* Jack and Daniel are beginning a relationship. Daniel has some brief thoughts about Sha're and what she would think about it. Slash. The focus would appear to be on Jack/Daniel, and Daniel's relationship with Sha're is canon - it would be odd for Daniel not to think of Sha're if he's getting involved with someone else.

* Draco is dating Pansy because it's expected of him, but he's fucking Harry every chance he gets. Draco kisses her distractedly, but he's looking past her shoulder to lock eyes with Harry across the room. Slash. And either darkfic or misogynistic.

* Erin comes on to Markus, but he brushes her off because of his torrid affair with Jeremiah. Slash.

* Talia and Ivanova have a fight. Talia talks to Garibaldi at a bar and his obvious interest in her cheers her up. Could be gen.

* Han goes to bed with Luke, but he's thinking about Leia the whole time. How explicit are Han's thoughts of Leia? That defines whether it's slash or het.

* Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head. Canon. Or was that just a dream I had?

[ex-mommybir.livejournal.com]

* Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head. Canon. Or was that just a dream I had?

I think I wrote this story once. Only I left out the actual shooting.

[mad_maudlin]

Hmmmm...

I'd say the last two sceneria cross the line. When the same character is active in both pairings at the same time (Han wants Luke and Leia, although not necessarily at once) it's hetty; most of the others seem to involve triangles (Talia doesn't actually want to get it on with Garibaldi, does she?) or tangential relationships (Daniel's thinking about Sha're, but she has no real active part in the story).

Some things are just unrealistic; the relationships a character has or has had in canon have to be addressed, and deciding that all possible het love interests are dead, evil, gay or on tour with the Ringling Brothers is not going to fly with most readers. You have to resolve those issues realistically, and that may mean introducing some het content into the story--a love triangle, an old romance cooled to friendship, conflicted desires. But that doesn't necessarily require a het label, if the focus is still on the slash relationship and the het one is not actively and directly involved.

Of course, I apply the same standard to slash--I don't consider Strange Bedfellows to be slash, really, since the story's about Harry and Hermione being morons first and foremost. I warned it for slash content because other people are morons, too, but it's such a miniscule part of the story that I don't think of the fic as "slashy."

BTW, what would you call a story featuring both het and slash elements? Bificual?

[prillalar]

Some things are just unrealistic; the relationships a character has or has had in canon have to be addressed, and deciding that all possible het love interests are dead, evil, gay or on tour with the Ringling Brothers is not going to fly with most readers.

Yes, so true. Ordinarily I don't worry about such things, just let the pairings fall where they may, but I'm under some contraints for a particular story and I thought it might be good to get some opinions.

Of course, I apply the same standard to slash--I don't consider Strange Bedfellows to be slash, really, since the story's about Harry and Hermione being morons first and foremost.

It's all about the focus of the story, really. Which I suppose I'm trying to judge. How much het focus before most people would consider it "het content"? Tricky.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I'd say the HP, the Star Wars and the XF all have het content, even if the SW is only emotionally (isn't it the *emotion* that's important? And god, do I love those phantom threesomes, where one or both partners are thinking of someone else while having sex).

[prillalar]

The phantom threesomes are indeed hot. Mmmm. I should write more of those.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

This is why I hate labels like "slash" and "het".

[prillalar]

This certainly isn't the first time they've given me trouble. And a lot of other fandoms are way pickier about mixing slash and het than HP is.

[twistedchick]

I don't sort out what's slash and het too easily. But for
* Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head, the sequel is, of course, Krycek courts Scully and she either shoots him, goes off with him, or gets into a three-way with Skinner -- which is no more impossible than anything else, and actually might be a sort of oddball remix of "I Still Have Plans to Go to Mexico."

[prillalar]

Hee! In TXF, all things were, if not probable, at least possible, and therefore attempted.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head.

This is the only one of the scenarios you listed that I would consider as really containing any het.

The Han/Luke one...maybe, depending on the individual story. Could go either way.

[prillalar]

Yeah, without more detail, it's hard to really make a call. I'm just trying to get a general sense of people's opinions.

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

Also, sorry, I got distracted by Jeremiah and Markus there.

I agree with the concensus that they're all slash, and that the SW one contains the greatest elements of het -- which shows to go you, it's the emotional connection that dictates the gendered moniker, not the actual sex. Because the HP one, which is basically a flip of the SW one, is slash all the way.

That being said, the XF one has more than a little het in it, if only by your description, because the emotional connection between Scully and Mulder seems greater than the straight-up fucking Mulder has with Krycek. Scully is the one he "comes home" to, and plus, she shoots him in the head. That's love, baby. *g*

At the end of the day, I think you've got a Jack/Daniel story, a Harry/Draco story, a Jeremiah/Markus story, a Talia/Ivanova story, a Han/Leia story, and a Mulder/Scully story. All the other dalliances are just dalliances, color added to the central relationship.

Now you must write all of these, in 100-500 word drabbles each. Or, I suppose, you could auction them off as bunnies? *g*

[prillalar]

"Mulder, where did you get those scratches on your back?"

"I don't think that new fabric softener is working."

"Seriously, Mulder."

"It was just Krycek."

"You had a fight?"

"No, no."

"Good."

"We were just fucking."

"!!!"

"Don't worry, Scully, we used condoms."

*bang*

[copracat]

* Jack and Daniel are beginning a relationship. Daniel has some brief thoughts about Sha're and what she would think about it.

Slash. She was his wife, it's a reasonable assumption of what he might think about when starting a relationship.

* Draco is dating Pansy because it's expected of him, but he's fucking Harry every chance he gets. Draco kisses her distractedly, but he's looking past her shoulder to lock eyes with Harry across the room.


Slash. This is a melodramatic cliche and we love them in slash fandom.

* Erin comes on to Markus, but he brushes her off because of his torrid affair with Jeremiah.

Slash. Depending on the courtesy or rudeness of the brush off and how Erin is described by the writer this is the kind of story that leads to people rattling on about gynophobia in slashdom.

* Talia and Ivanova have a fight. Talia talks to Garibaldi at a bar and his obvious interest in her cheers her up.

Slash.

* Han goes to bed with Luke, but he's thinking about Leia the whole time.

Het.

* Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head.

Fucked up and wrong. Can we find this mad writer and drum them out of fandom? *g* Just joking...

[prillalar]

* Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head.

Fucked up and wrong. Can we find this mad writer and drum them out of fandom? *g* Just joking...

*tears up story and runs out of the room sobbing*

Er, I mean... *g* This one was just my little fantasy. :)

[barkley.livejournal.com]

I'd read 'em all. And I wouldn't have any issues if I were the big, bad archiver, and I archived them all under a slash archive because I think they all contain an element of slash. Who cares if het seeps in too?

However, I will say that the SW scenario can go either way for me, and I wouldn't care if I found it in a slash or het archive. I was once was trying to place a story similar to that scenario (except it was all male) and I couldn't figure out if I should put it in the Daniel/Other category or the Jack/Daniel category. I ended up with Daniel/Other, but mostly because I didn't have a back-up Daniel/Other story that I wanted to nominate.

[prillalar]

And I wouldn't have any issues if I were the big, bad archiver, and I archived them all under a slash archive because I think they all contain an element of slash. Who cares if het seeps in too?

This is more like the archive doesn't allow het and I have to decide whether to submit the story or not.

However, I will say that the SW scenario can go either way for me, and I wouldn't care if I found it in a slash or het archive.

Yeah, those are hard to place. I like reading them, though. I like stories that mix it up. :)

[zarahemla.livejournal.com]

Mulder fucks Krycek, then comes home and fucks Scully. Scully finds out and shoots Mulder in the head.

Didn't Dark Nascent write that already?

j/k

[prillalar]

Hee! If not, someone should.

[the-star-fish.livejournal.com]

My one and only HCL story involves Joe & Billy fucking the girls from the diner ... but I think there's a lot of Joe/Billy in it, too. So:

1 = slash
2 = slash
3 = duh
4 = who? *g* slash
5 = why? Okay, I would say het, because if it were reversed, I'd call it slash. Or pre-slash. So maybe pre-het. Actually, it's just fucked up and insulting to Luke, and I don't think I'd like it. (Wow, I guess I had an opinion on that one, huh?)
6 = heh. Mulder, Mulder, Mulder. When will you learn?

And I'm wondering if there's a reason for the question, or if you're just curious in general.

[prillalar]

And I'm wondering if there's a reason for the question, or if you're just curious in general.

I have to write a story to some specifications, one of which is "no het" and as one of the required characters has a (minor) canon het relationship, I'm wondering how much het is too much. I can't really ask either. So I thought this would be a good way to get some opinions.

[zortified.livejournal.com]

I think all of those count as "het content." Whether it is a "het story" depends probably on the reader and how sensitive they ar to such things. ;-)

I usually say '50%' content, or whatever is the main theme of the story. If the het relationship is just as much a necessary part of the story as the slash, then even a single het scene might make me think of it as a het story (or, rather, a mixed story). If it's a throwaway scene, then I probably wouldn't consider it a het story.

But if a story isn't meant to contain any het content, and it has any of the above, then it fails to not include any het conent. Whether or not the content ends up being "harmless" in that it doesn't distract or turnoff a slash reader, is again dependable on the individual reader.

Er. This didn't help, did it?

[prillalar]

I usually say '50%' content, or whatever is the main theme of the story.

Hee! I like that. I can label the story: no more than 3% het content by volume.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I'd say: why do we care? Rigid categorization is useful only insofar as it provides a quick and relatively accurate way of organizing your approach to a subject; at the margins, it's useless.

To me, if a story contains a noticeable element of same-sex longing/pining/sweet-hot-lovin', it's slash. If it contains the same for the opposite sex, it's het. The two don't cancel each other out, nor are they mutually exclusive. (That's the principle on which the big SV archives operate, btw--the SSA takes any story with a slash element, despite the presence of hetness, and Wild Coyote the same, in reverse.) The only thing that bugs me about this is how narrow a scope it leaves for anything to be called gen.

[prillalar]

I'd say: why do we care?

Generally I don't. But there's a specific situation where it makes a difference. So, in the grand tradition of LJ, I ask everyone else to do my thinking for me. *g*

The only thing that bugs me about this is how narrow a scope it leaves for anything to be called gen.

To me, it's more about focus. If the relationship is the focus of the story, it's slash or het. But if something else is primary, it's gen. But then, if you post a story with a M/M relationship and call it gen, you may get jumped on, whereas a het relationship probably wouldn't be a problem. So complicated!

[starshine24mc.livejournal.com]

Okay, that last one made me laugh right out loud! *LOL <--see?

I think as long as the primary couple are gay, slash, boy on boy, call it what you will, you can have a few het couples around for flavor--example, my current M/Sk is absolutely slash, but I've got all the Scoobies doing some investigating, and have made Scully and Doggett a couple. They're not the focus of the piece, but they have a couple of huggy moments that I think emphasize the main pairing, rather than drawing away from it.

Just me thinks....

[prillalar]

But...but...Skinner and Doggett belong together! Is there a big reversal at the end where they realise they are Meant To Be?

*koff* Sorry about that. Just ignore me.

I don't think having a het couple in a slash story is a big deal. But if one of the slash pair is also involved in a het relationship then things get sticky. It seems like everyone has a different level of tolerance there.

[multilingualism.livejournal.com]

Categories of slash and het are determined largely by how the reader chooses to interpret the source material. How do you categorise something if a character's bi? The reader's preference for slash or het will likely determine how they interpret

Draco is dating Pansy because it's expected of him, but he's fucking Harry every chance he gets. Draco kisses her distractedly, but he's looking past her shoulder to lock eyes with Harry across the room.

slasher: True H/D Love with Pansy as an interfering bint. And society is SOOO CRUEL because it forces Draco to hide his everlasting lurve for Harry and forces the reader to encounter M/F action.
het-ter: Harry is a youthful fling (or a bunch of hot fucking) whereas Pansy is destined to be his wife and eventually Draco will realise that he does indeed love Pansy, who has faithfully been going out with him despite knowing that he and Harry are shagging like bunnies.

The problem is that for the purposes of archives and warnings, fic needs to be categorised - people want to know if the story's het or fic before they click on the link, not after. So the decision to 'officially' label something as het or slash rests with the author, as it's s/he who's submitting to an archive or posting. Authorial intent? With the blurbs above, I think character intent is key over the actual quantity of M/F - the H/D I'd see as slash with het (Draco thinks about and looks at Harry when he's with Pansy), but the Luke/Han I'd see as het with slash (Han's thinking about Leia). But all of them are at least partially het or slash, strictly speaking, as they contain M/F undertones or text,

[prillalar]

How do you categorise something if a character's bi? The reader's preference for slash or het will likely determine how they interpret

Good call. And it depends on the focus, the amount of interaction, the reactions of the characters.

I like making my characters bi -- more scope for interesting stuff, I think.