prillalar | HP, SG1, and "Canon and the Greater Reality" on Sunday morning

HP, SG1, and "Canon and the Greater Reality" on Sunday morning

HP Question
Do we know when wizards are considered by the MoM to be "of age"? I was thinking today about how the kids aren't to use magic in the holidays. But in GoF, we learn that Fred and George have spent the summer inventing magical gag items in their room. We know they're 16, since they're too young to participate in the tournament.

So, do you think 16 is the age of majority? Or does the Ministry not track the magic that carefully and so children in homes where adult wizards are using magic can more easily get away with breaking the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery? Or is what they are doing somehow not quite sorcery?

ETA: Looking at the letters that Harry receives from the MoM, they both say We have received intelligence that..., which seems to indicate that they don't actually know what is happening. And in fact, it was Dobby, not Harry, who used the Hover Charm, so they can't be tracking Harry's wand. Thusly, I conclude that Fred and George are probably safe concocting things in their room so long as Percy doesn't notice what they're doing.

Stargate Question
I've been tossing around (and tried to write at least once) some thoughts about Daniel and Paul Davis during 48 Hours. One thing I'm trying to work out: do you think Paul speaks Russian? I'm pretty sure we already knew that Daniel does. I realise that we saw all their negotiations in English, but that's because this is NA TV.

General Thoughts about Character Extrapolation and Interpolation
This brings up a question I've often wondered about (and possibly have posted about before): when the canon is restricted by its medium, do we restrict our interpretations in the same way? In the Stargate example above, the characters all speak English in the Russian negotiation scene because it's for an English audience. But does that mean that when I'm writing fic about it, I should assume that that's always the case?

Or what about profanity? On TV shows, characters are usually limited in the kind of language they can use. I recall a discussion once on whether it was in character for Mulder and Scully to swear in fanfic, because they never do on the show.

In fanfic, we spend a lot of time extrapolating characterisation. How will Harry and Ron and Hermione behave when they are twenty-five instead of fifteen? How will Jack O'Neill react to kissing another man?

We also have to make choices about interpolating characterisation. In my opinion, it is very in character for Mulder and Scully to use profanity. It doesn't appear in the canon, but in fact, when watching the show, we suspend our disbelief about their lack of profanity.

In Harry Potter, when we write about a relationship between Harry and Draco, that's an extrapolation. We're taking the characters somewhere new and we're making judgments on their actions and reactions.

When we write about a relationship between Remus and Sirius, for a lot of people (though by no means all), that's an interpolation. We're amplifying what's already there and adding details, assuming that the medium will not allow their relationship to be fully text.

(I'm not addressing author intent here. I don't think JKR intends us to make that interpretation. But we can and we do.)

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Personally, I think the underage magic thing is either a) [the more likely idea] that JKR just didn't plan that out well. Because everyone but Harry seems to get away with doing underage magic. Harry's the kid always in the backseat with the girl (or boy) when the cop drives by, whereas everyone else fucks down by the beach and no one cares. b) [the less likely and more conspiracy-theory idea] that Harry's the only one they're really watching in case he tries to go all Voldemort-y.

But I think it's really just another case of JKR not paying attention to certain details.

But I think it's really just another case of JKR not paying attention to certain details.

This may be true, but it doesn't help my Grand Theory of Everything in Harry Potter. *g* I need a plausible explanation that I can hang fic on. I'm leaning towards 16 being the age at which you can use magic outside of school.

I certainly agree that Harry can't get away with anything! Poor kid.

I think she establishes that it's seventeen in OotP-- IIRC, the twins are complaining about not being allowed into the Order even though they're of age now, and they're seventeen.

Ah, you're so right! I'll have to go with some sort of Plan B then.

I think of 17 as the 'magical' age too, due to GoF, but regarding the Weasley twins, I think you'd be safe speculating that, 1) They come from a large and totally non-muggle family (therefore, both hard to watch and not necessarily in need of watching). 2) They may have come up with some super-secret shielding charm developed to protect them from Molly, and which incidentally hides them from the Ministry as well. 3) Their candies, etc. may be based more on potions than charms (no foolish wand waving needed).

The huge issue when ever Harry is hauled up for Underage Use of Magic is the involvement of Muggles... (which is hard to avoid when you live in Little Whinging.

So maybe it's the prescence of Muggles which triggers Ministry involvement; as long as the Twins don't transfigure the local vicar into a Capuchin Monkey, it's a matter for family discipline not criminal proceeding.

This would be analogous with under-age driving in the UK; it's only illegal on public highways, not on private property.

The huge issue when ever Harry is hauled up for Underage Use of Magic is the involvement of Muggles

It's true that Muggles are present both times, but there are two separate statutes cited: (Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery and International Confederation of Warlocks' Statute of Secrecy.

The first time, Harry really doesn't get in that much trouble -- just a warning. But I'm thinking that if Fred was able to change Ron's teddybear into a spider when he was all of *five* years old, the MoM has probably had more than one occasion to notice the twins. They're as smart as Lisa and as much trouble as Bart!

I'm right with you on 1 & 2. I think Fred & George are smart enough to come up with some way to hide themselves, or else make it look like the magic is being done by Molly or Arthur.

On 3, though, I'm not sure whether potions would be less noticable than spells. My understanding is that the potions still use the magical ablilities of the wizard -- if a Muggle used the exact same recipe, they wouldn't come up with a working potion.

I'm not sure whether potions would be less noticable than spells

Well, I'm thinking that at least some portion of the magical monitoring has to do with what's done with a wand, although you have a point -- magic is magic, and the ding Harry gets in COS because of Dobby has nothing to do with a wand.

I guess the bottom line is: what is the Ministry monitoring/looking for? I have no doubt that Harry is monitored far more closely than your average underaged wizard living with a Muggle family.

The thing is though, if you're monitoring individuals wands and generalized magic separately, it's easy to get Harry for magic happening at Privet Drive -- he's the only magical person/creature there. At the Weasley house, monitoring general magic is useless since there are at least two and sometimes more adult wizard/witches present, not to mention any guests they may choose to invite into their home. As long as Fred and George don't use their own wands, any magic they do should be covered.

I assumed it was 16 since that's the boinking age in the U.K. currently.

SG is a special case: the producers etc. have blatantly said that we should not interpret all of the English as English. When confronted with questions like "why do all aliens speak English", they point to Daniel and Teal'c. Hunt around on google, and I'm sure you'll find an interview or press release or three.

I don't know about that particular scene, but I think we can probably safely assume (for fic purposes) that it was carried out in the most appropriate language.

I think I'm going to assume that Paul speaks Russian. It makes sense to me that they would send people to Russia that could speak the language, regardless of which language was used for the negotiation.

I have no idea if Paul speaks Russian. However, you are correct in that we already knew that Daniel does. He did it when those tricky Air Force folks spoke to him when they first caught him in 1969.

Well, and seeing as he describes himself as speaking... what, 20-something (30-something?) languages, I think we could have safely guessed Russian would be among them.

Those tricksy Air Force types! Good think Daniel is tricksier.

In Small Victories, when it was two Russian submariners, they spoke Russian. But then, the Goa'uld always speak appear to speak English among themselves, and we can safely assume that's not the case. I don't know the standard fare for diplomats, although you'd think that if Daniel and Davis were in Russia they'd have the courtesy to speak Russian. For fanfic purposes, I think you could argue it either way.

Do you think that for fanfic purposes I could also argue that they both have the passion of Rhett Butler, the tender sensitivity of Ashley Wilkes, and the refractory period of a 17 year old?

Having never seen Gone With the Wind or heard of Ashley Wilkes, I'm gonna say...sure. As for the refractory period--hey, man, I'd read it, but I'm a dirty skank.

This makes me smile, actually, that we're spending so much time on consistancey and reality for shows that are usually, by definition, unreal. I suppose we want our fictional worlds as internally consistent as possible because we inhabit them in a way that the source authors never do.

When an author of original sf/f doesn't spend enough time on consistancy, the result is usually what we call "bad."

If anything, I'd say that sf/f, horror and similar genres require an even greater dose of realism, say, mystery, or romance, or even historical fiction. Somebody--Mark Twain, maybe?--said something about getting a reader to suspend disbelief: you can make him swallow one porcupine, but he won't swallow two. Meaning, the audience will only let you go so far in terms of what they're willing to believe before putting the book down, turning off the telly or walking out of the theatre.

Sf/f and friends, among other things, have porcupines on the menu from the start: a reader/viewer has to suspend disbelief right from the start to accept the very existance of the space aliens, wizards or vampires you're writing about. Therefore, if you aren't careful and slip up in the details (the artifact doesn't work the same way twice, a character's backstory isn't consistant, the planet/kingdom is inhabited entirely by large predators whose primary source of food seems to be people) you'll lose the audience. They won't accept the aliens/wizard/vampires as "real" for the purposes of your world if you don't make them "realistic" to a certain degree. Once you give them a porcupine, you have to do your damnedest to convince them it's a chicken, or they'll never swallow it.

Sometimes I wonder if writing the characters exactly as they appear in the source, especially for TV shows and comic books, would make our characterisation seem poor to other fanfic writers/readers. We usually strive for a greater reality than the source can give us.

I, personally, am not interested in fanfic that's meant to be exactly like canon. I have the original creator for that. One of my issues with much of the Harry Potter fandom is how many authors try to write as if they were JKR--the profusion of fifth-year epics is a case in point, both of how common, and how utterly futile, that tendancy is. Fanfic is a place for experimenting, exploring and imagining, not just for slavishly immitating the original.

That being said...interpolation and extrapolation are always necessary. No medium can put the audience in the skin of any character with absolute perfection. Film can't show us a character's thoughs and feelings except indirectly; text is similarly limited by the author's choice of narrative structure. Take Harry Potter: we know most characters only through Harry's eyes, with Harry's interpretations, and even Harry himself we only know in certain situations. If I want to write a fic about Ron, or Snape, or Filch, I have to do a lot of extrapolition and interpolation with the more or less biased information at hand. The same applies to a TV show: writing fic about Mulder and Scully might be easy, but Spender or Krycek or Marita require a heavy dose of authorial interpretation because there's so much less information, so many fewer data points, on what they do and what they're like.

That interpolation and extrapolation is subject to the porcupine principal as well, of course. We're not asking readers to believe in wizards or aliens, but that our fic is taking place in a certain universe with specific people they've already accepted as "real" thanks to the work of the originators. If we foul up the characterization, or simply take it in a direction the reader doesn't agree with, we lose him just as much as if we get a major detail wrong or misspell the character's name.

When an author of original sf/f doesn't spend enough time on consistancy, the result is usually what we call "bad."

True enough, but I do find that HP is not very consistent in the details. It's not something I would (or did) notice when I was just reading the books. It's only when I began to discuss them and to write fanfic that I really began to become aware of it.

It's that level of detail that I think we fans are often more aware of than the source creators. (Tolkien excepted in a big way.)

Still and all, HP is very vivid and compelling and I derive a lot of pleasure from trying to make things fit together and to form theories of how things work. Same with Star Wars.

I like the porcupine metaphor. :)

I, personally, am not interested in fanfic that's meant to be exactly like canon. I have the original creator for that. One of my issues with much of the Harry Potter fandom is how many authors try to write as if they were JKR--the profusion of fifth-year epics is a case in point, both of how common, and how utterly futile, that tendancy is. Fanfic is a place for experimenting, exploring and imagining, not just for slavishly immitating the original.

Agreed, but what if the element of the original that the fanfic author is intrigued with, and wants to experiment with, is the linguistic style, or narrative structure? These are rarely discussed with the same zeal as the development of character or setting, or the mechanics of magic, but they are an essential part of the impact and appeal of the original, and essential tools in the workbox of any author.

I suppose we want our fictional worlds as internally consistent as possible because we inhabit them in a way that the source authors never do.

That's right on the money. You make me want to nibble your brain.

That's the best come-on I've heard all week. *g*

So, what are you wearing...

Ha! Tease. *g* Mmmmm. Brains.

I'd always assumed that the restrictions on underage magic were linked to wand use. The Ministry doesn't show up when Harry's freeing snakes; similarly, it doesn't complain about Fred and George's inventions, because those depend on putting the right ingredients together in the right order, not on how well they can flick their wands.

I don't think it can be linked to wand use since the first time Harry is warned about underage magic use, it's Dobby, not he, who cast the Hover Charm. The letter from the ministry just said that a Hover Charm was used at Harry's home.

As well, the letter he recieves in OotP reads:

We have received intelligence that you performed the Patronus Charm at twenty-three minutes past nine this evening in a Muggle-inhabited area and in the presence of a Muggle.

They don't say "we know", just that someone -- Umbridge, as it turns out -- has told them. I'm more confused than ever. I wonder if Dobby turned Harry in the first time.

Well, since Dobby wanted Harry to stay away from Hogwarts... getting expelled for underage magic would certainly mean he wasn't there.

I'm with

amatia: Dobby would have turned Harry in, or perhaps just hinted to his employers that Harry Potter had worked such-and-such a charm, and let them write the letter.

I still think the "chemistry is different from active magic use" explanation works for the twins' inventions, though. I could see a theory of magic in which wand use draws most directly on a person's innate power, then various wandless charms, while potions are mostly using power that's inherent in the ingredients, with just a bit of wizardry as catalyst.

Sometimes I wonder if writing the characters exactly as they appear in the source, especially for TV shows and comic books, would make our characterisation seem poor to other fanfic writers/readers. We usually strive for a greater reality than the source can give us.

Wow. I love your insight here. TV, comic books, books for children, non-independent films - all have restraints on what they can say and so that can affect the way a character is portrayed. And I do think that the best fanfiction fills in these lacks, adding the dimension that the original source may be missing.

This makes me smile, actually, that we're spending so much time on consistancey and reality for shows that are usually, by definition, unreal. I suppose we want our fictional worlds as internally consistent as possible because we inhabit them in a way that the source authors never do.

Yes. I think we may well love them more. *g*

The effort's not wasted at all though. We do want our worlds consistent, and we want them to be recognizable. In the best fanfic of all, I find not only my very favorite aspects of the canon, but all those favorite aspects handled even better than the canon itself. And to be better-than-canon, I think, requires a careful awareness of what the canon actually is, and the inclusion of what makes that particular set of characters/universe special and interesting.

We do want our worlds consistent, and we want them to be recognizable. In the best fanfic of all, I find not only my very favorite aspects of the canon, but all those favorite aspects handled even better than the canon itself.

It used to bother me a lot, back in the TXF days and even sometimes now, when I'm trying to unravel some obscure and illogical point about the Wizarding World, that I should have to strive to be more accurate and consistent than the creators. And I'd get called on it if I weren't.

But now I realise that going further is one of the things that makes it fanfic. And not every show/book/movie is so inconsistent and confused. But I usually write less fanfic about those canons. So, there's a point in there somewhere. *g* Probably just that I would rather fix up somebody's bad system than use somebody's perfect system.

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HP, SG1, and "Canon and the Greater Reality" on Sunday morning

I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

Re: I think seventeen, but regarding the underage magic thing..

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