Questions to LJ, Chiefly on Porn

[prillalar]

I've been trying to write some porn, but it's turning out a little boring. I think I'm somewhat burnt out on writing sex scenes. So, I was hoping you could help.

My first question is stylistic. I find it hard not to use the same verbs and adjectives and metaphors over and over again. How do you keep your sex scenes fresh and interesting? Do you notice if an author is repeating herself? Are there things you like to see over and over? Words you hope to never see again?

My second question is about what makes erotica hot. I'm talking about fanfic PWP here, not sex in a longer story or non-fanfic erotica. But if you read a 500 word mouthful of fanfic porn, what makes it hot? For me, the thing I most need is for the sex to illuminate something about the participants's relationship. How about you?

Comments

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

I love your icon. She was the one great thing about that movie, IMO (also Lucy Liu was great.)

And I have a really unhelpful answer, which is that for me what make fanfic sex hot is being embedded in a nice long juicy story...

I'm such a girl!

Plus I don't write, so I'm not really the one you're asking...

[prillalar]

Hee! Go Go was SO hot. I felt very dirty, but I just blamed it on Tarantino.

[jfc013.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it gets repetitive--yes. However, it's fun to pick on one aspect of the act and tweak it a little. If your guys are usually vocal, make them fall silent. Add some outside influence (a noise, the quality of light, a nice scent) to the atmosphere. I agree with your comment about the relationship-illumination, too!

[prillalar]

it's fun to pick on one aspect of the act and tweak it a little

That's a good thought. Thanks!

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

It has to be in character (or within the acceptable range of 'in character'), and if it's a short PWP, I like the language to be very sensual - I want to feel it on my skin and taste it and smell it. It doesn't even have to be very graphic, just evocative.

But I totally do get bogged down in the same phrases over and over and it annoys me, because I can't break free and just go over the top with the romance-novel type erotic language.

The other thing is, lots of people jump POV in the sex scenes, and I find that jarring. I realize it adds variety to know what both Sirius and Remus are feeling, but I sort of get that jolt of "whose head am I in now?" or "How does Sirius know that?"

[prillalar]

But I totally do get bogged down in the same phrases over and over and it annoys me, because I can't break free and just go over the top with the romance-novel type erotic language.

That might be fun to try some time. A totally different style. I did do some femslash once in a more "straight-boy" style and the feedback I got on it was usually "My husband liked your story." *g*

to be blunt..

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

There's only so many holes it goes in, ya know? So the idea is to focus on sensation. What's the character feeling? Smell, sound, taste, etc. What are they thinking about? What's their internal dialogue? You want hot sex, you gotta make me feel it. And I can't feel it if I don't get inside *snicker* the character. That means not just their genitals, but their head *snicker again*. I am five. Seriously, though, if you want my thoughtsa on how to do hot, it's simple: Don't focus on mechanics. We all know how to do sex.

OTOH, I'm not bothered at all by "dirty" words. Nothing turns me off faster than 'hot, molten core'. Please for the love of god call a cock a cock. Although whoever in slash decided that the words anus and bowels were sexy should be shot.

Uh. I've gone off here. Can you tell this is a whole important issue for me? Terribly sorry.

Best of luck with your porn. *G*

Re: to be blunt..

[prillalar]

Don't focus on mechanics. We all know how to do sex.

True enough. :)

Please for the love of god call a cock a cock.

This works great in a lot of fandoms, but I find that lit fandoms sometimes need special treatment, either b/c of style or anachronistic language.

What's that? Talk about porn? Okay!

[thete1.livejournal.com]

First off: never, NEVER think about how much porn you've produced over the years. Don't count the sex scenes, don't *think* about it. Move away from the computer and, like, learn to crochet if that's what it takes to keep you from thinking about it. Because there's nothing more damaging (for me) than the thought, "hey, I really have written [number] sex scenes in the past few months. I think I need to sit down."

The fact is, there *are* only so many different ways you can say "and then [A] did [sex act] to [B] and [B] came really hard and either did or did not do [sex act] to [A] who also came really hard."

I *do* know I use some phrases fairly often. I try to avoid it, but if it works... it works. These days, I tell myself that it adds an interesting resonance when, say, Batman does the same sorts of things as, say, Robin. And it does. But it's also... it's just one of those things. Maybe it would help if you stopped thinking about it as being porn-specific.

Let's face it, there are only so many ways to handle the *pronoun* issue in slash, too, and we repeat ourselves in *that* all the time.

As to whether I notice an author repeating him/herself... only if they suck. Seriously. Or... okay, that's not true. Even a really good writer can be 'visible' in their tricks and style-choices if, say, they write the same pairing 80 times.

Which is something I'm suddenly worried about, because, man. I *want* to write Superboy/Robin 80 times. But anyway, yeah. Some readers really do notice *everything* you do (and don't do), but they're rare. And noticing is not always equivalent to hating, or even being bored.

helenish has a hugely distinctive style, and I'm nowhere close to being bored with it, you know? Which is something I really tend to hold on to *tightly*, because I *know* my style is... what it is.

My second question is about what makes erotica hot. I'm talking about fanfic PWP here, not sex in a longer story or non-fanfic erotica. But if you read a 500 word mouthful of fanfic porn, what makes it hot? For me, the thing I most need is for the sex to illuminate something about the participants's relationship. How about you?

That's pretty much it, for me. The most important thing, for me, when reading (and writing) porn is the question: "Okay, rimming is hot, but can I really see [A] rimming [B] in *this* way?" The hottest sex scenes are the ones where I'm absolutely sure I'm 'watching' [A] and [B] (and sometimes [C], [D], and [X]) having sex. Where there's no doubt in my mind that they'd do it just. Like. That.

Re: What's that? Talk about porn? Okay!

[prillalar]

never, NEVER think about how much porn you've produced over the years

K, that's good advice. (But I am not taking up crochet.) :)

As to whether I notice an author repeating him/herself... only if they suck. Seriously. Or... okay, that's not true. Even a really good writer can be 'visible' in their tricks and style-choices if, say, they write the same pairing 80 times.

Hee! I don't think I'm likely to get up to 80 with one pairing. I suppose I just want to expand my porn vocabulary. I guess I should go read a bunch of porn and take some notes about what other people emphasize. For research!

sex and other indoor sports

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

You're gonna thing I'm kidding -- which I sort of am -- and runpunkrun's gonna have my head -- but I recommend inane metaphors.

I had Danny, mid-blowjob, arrange himself "perpendicular, like an alligator." Which, okay, I cut it, because it didn't make any sense and plus, see above, Punk/head. That being said -- nothing makes me happier when reading porn then to come across phrases that are unexpected/mindblowing/interesting/peculiar.

The best tip I ever got was, "think of the most obvious thing to have your character say/do in the situation, and then do the exact opposite." Which ends you up with lots of alligators, but also sometimes good stuff too. AND, it's not boring.

As for hot? Straight up? Teasing. Incredibly, frustrating, crazymaking, flailing, whiteknuckled teasing. When I'm reading, by the time I get to the actual bump and grind I'm usually ready to move on. But the flicks and licks and tugs and squeezes and teases that lead up to it -- I don't mean foreplay, I mean the actual, um, sex part, with the cocks and balls and whatnot -- are The Hot.

(Also, see above, I second one helenish and raise you an thete1)

Re: sex and other indoor sports

[thete1.livejournal.com]

I had Danny, mid-blowjob, arrange himself "perpendicular, like an alligator." Which, okay, I cut it, because it didn't make any sense and plus, see above, Punk/head. That being said -- nothing makes me happier when reading porn then to come across phrases that are unexpected/mindblowing/interesting/peculiar.

Oooh. I think I have to try this. I mean, I realized not too long ago that I've given up on metaphor almost entirely. And I don't think it was a *bad* decision -- very few of the characters I play with think in metaphor, and I really do everything short of first-person to write 'in-character.'

But... hmm. Simile is still up for grabs, and... yeah. Hmm.

(Also, see above, I second one [info]helenish and raise you an [info]thete1)

*snorf* I admit NOTHING.

[copracat]

What makes erotica hot?

Relationship illumination plus button pushing. Detailed description of action more often gets in the way than not. Five hundred words is hot if you come out of the story with a striking impression of the relationship. The writer has to convince that the protaganists find the action hot, too.

I'm so not helpful! You know all that, already.

[prillalar]

Hee! But it's nice to know you agree. :)

[jeddy83.livejournal.com]

Mmm, someone was talking about that just the other day, or at least what they enjoyed in a sex scene.

Oh, found it. louiselux in this post. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/louiselux/135496.html)

[prillalar]

Cool, thanks. :)

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I'm so very burnt out on slash fanfic sex myself I've almost stopped writing it. The idea of a fade-to-black seems very enticing!

I think the hottest things are the unexpected, when the focus is on the characters and who they are and how they feel emotionally, and not so much on the physical. I also like the unexpected (or at least *different* from the usual 'formula'). One of my last sex scenes had anal fingering, but no anal sex, and what started off like it might be a blow-job and ended up with fingering!man just watching while his partner jerked himself off. And fingering!man didn't come at all during the course of the story. I'd love to say it's because I'm original, but honestly it's because I'm sick, sick, sick to death of reading repetitive scenes with anal sex ("Now! I need you now!") and expert, deep-throat style blow-jobs and mutual orgasms. I like sex scenes that are more realistic, I think -- more reflective of what real sex between real people is really like.

I think you're on to something about scenes that show something about the relationship (and maybe that's why I love your stories!). I'm long past the days where I get excited by reading about two hot-looking men getting it on. And I'm far too old and uptight to enjoy the idea of two guys getting so carried away with sex/the idea of sex that nothing else matters. (Oh, and neck sucking. Neck sucking does nothing for me personally, so when I read it instead of thinking 'wow, that's hot!' I think 'Goddamn, why does *everyone* have to write about neck sucking!')

Arrgh -- I'm just being all bitchy and sour! I'm going to shut up now. You're getting far better and more positive advice from your other readers!

[prillalar]

I think the hottest things are the unexpected ... (or at least *different* from the usual 'formula'

Yes, good thoughts! And I'm also really tired of reading about anal sex -- I write it when I think it's appropriate, but it's not my fave thing at all. One snippet I wrote back in the TXF days was all about how one guy didn't *like* anal sex but his partner talked him into fucking him. ("You fuck like a girl!") It wasn't that hot, but it was funny. *g*

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

Everyone gets turned on by different things, and I got so worked up lately trying to write my first real sex scenes in a fanfic, that I threw up my hands with trying to anticipate the audience, and I wrote what I thought was hot.

I think it worked, I broke two of my betas today. If you get back an email that just says "GUH" is it a good sign? I took it as one.

There's really nothing I hope to never see again, except for the use of live snakes as masturbatory aids. But I think that's only an issue in HP fic.

[prillalar]

There's really nothing I hope to never see again, except for the use of live snakes as masturbatory aids.

You know, this is exactly the sort of thing you should never say to me. *g*

[ursulakohl.livejournal.com]

I read an entire book on how to write sex scenes at some point. (It was a good book, but alas, since I read it because my mother left it lying around one holiday and not because I bought it, I don't remember the title.) Anyway, the conclusion was that the sex has to advance the plot, just like any other sort of scene . . .

In my personal experience, bad sex is way more fun to write than good sex, because stuff is happening.

[prillalar]

I agree re the bad sex. As well, often when I'm writing a sex scene, I'll put in *one* awkward thing, in the hope that it's enough for the reader's mind to go "hey, not Perfect Porn Sex -- cool" but not so much that they'll go "eeeew!".

[minitrog.livejournal.com]

Do you notice if an author is repeating herself?

Generally not - even if I'm binging on particular author. On a couple of occasions I've noticed that an author is fond of a particualar word combo or descriptive phrase for something - but unless it's totally lurid (a la "dripping purple love tulip") it doesn't tend to stick or irritate.

Are there things you like to see over and over?

Personal kink hitters are always welcome. Passion inspired by affection.

Words you hope to never see again?

Usually not. There aren't many words that good writers can't use effectively on the right occasion - although I have to go with Kita here and say that I've never seen the word 'colon' used as an erotic positive. ::grimace::

But if you read a 500 word mouthful of fanfic porn, what makes it hot?

Porn works best for me if I feel a genuine personal attraction between the characters, a feeling that they share something, anything, on an intellectual or emotional basis. Something that puts them in the same space as people. ["You're hot". "Gosh, you too".] has nowhere near the strength of conviction for me as two characters sniggering together over someone else's crappy haircut. For short porn, the right line showing me that personal link can make the piece.

Another thing that always increases the power of short smut for me is dialogue indicating the characters familiarity with each other. Just a little something to indicate that this isn't the first fucking time they've met! It drives me bonkers when characters who have supposedly been shagging (or at least known each other) for years talk to each other like strangers in bed. You know that line in the movie "Truly, Madly, Deeply" where he goes on at her about her red bills? The line is there to do just that, remind us that they have had a relationship for years and years. Brilliant - gives you a hugh feel for their characters and their relationship - just one line.

Sorry - rambling - It's early, not coffee'd up yet. *g*

[prillalar]

Another thing that always increases the power of short smut for me is dialogue indicating the characters familiarity with each other. Just a little something to indicate that this isn't the first fucking time they've met!

Yes, exactly! Thank you! *makes out with you in the corner*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

1. Write what you think is hot.

2. Get into one character's head and stay there through the whole sex scene.

3. Use "noticeable" words just once in a given story. You can say "thrust" and "cock" and "come" and "lick" as much as you want. But "ravish" and "mewl" and "penultimate" shouldn't be repeated.

4. Every reader has some word that bothers them, and they're impossible to predict most of the time; follow the "try to please all and you will please none" rule as far as that goes. This person hates "core," that person hates "juices," that other person hates "tongue" as a verb, but it's okay as a noun...just do what you are okay with.

[iamsab.livejournal.com]

This is good advice! *nodding*

[ex-mommybir.livejournal.com]

I think Te is probably right, and it's a good idea not to think about how many sex scenes one has written in one's career as a slash writer. *g*

I know there's a long list of phrases I hope I never see again. Naturally, none of them is coming to mind on a pleasant sunny morning when I've just had breakfast. *burp* I find I'm more sensitive to cliches in slash than in het fanfic, maybe just because I've read more of the former than the latter.

One way I think slash writers--hell, het writers, too--can keep their sex scenes fresh is to expand their notions of sex beyond the blowjob and the fuck. Penetration is *not* necessary for orgasm, either for male or female; there are lots of ways to get off that don't involve Tab A and Slot B.

I'll echo several other people and say that characterization is a key part of what makes a PWP hot for me--a sense that *this* sex is unique and special because it involves *these* people who experience the world in particular ways. One of my favorite in-character sex scenes ever is a Maul/Obi-Wan scene that was part of a long series (which, alas, is not archived anywhere any more, as far as I know); they take a little holiday on an uninhabited planet with which Maul is somewhat familiar, Obi-Wan not. Maul challenges Obi-Wan to a hunt; Obi-Wan runs off into the mist, hoping to elude Maul and then find him before Maul finds him. Maul invokes a kind of hunting trance used by the Sith, then surprises Obi-Wan by exposing him to some slightly psychotropic plants. He then has his way with a woozy, synesthetic Obi. It was a sequence only possible to *these* characters in *this* series by *this* author, and it was very hot indeed without a lot of explicit blow-by-blow narrative of the sex.

So, hoping this helps, off to have a piece of fruit....

[greygoblin.livejournal.com]

*quietly de-lurks* I really have nothing to add, other than to echo the comment about clinical vocabulary-- a sudden anatomy lesson in the midst of a sex scene is both jarring and distinctly unsexy. Planning to contemplate this issue further on recs lj.
In other news, mommybird, the Maul/Obi-Wan story you mentioned *is* archived, just very discretely. The "Hell" series by Jedimom is available at Yahoogroups under "themindful." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themindful/ . The author has, I think, stopped writing the series, but hopefully will still add new group members to give access to the stories.
It's sad that I know this.

[branchandroot]

I usually don't notice repetition, unless the author uses the same word/phrase five times in as many sentences. Anything less than that just kind of slides by.

*thinks* Though I suppose one reason my own sex scenes tend to be a bit... impressionist... is that I do cut down on the physical detail in order to get around having to repeat myself too often.

As for hotness, I tend to identify very strongly with the vp character. So if he's really turned on by whatever is happening, it's likely to draw me in too. For that reason I favor more description of the vpc's sensations and less of what's causing them. As many people have already pointed out, tab A, slot B, not difficult or entrancing.

[prillalar]

I've been trying to find a balance between the physical and mental descriptions. I like physical detail if it's not too lushly drawn and doesn't go on forever. I suppose for me it's about what the POV char is noticing at that moment.

[mylexie.livejournal.com]

I like the control factor, and when the participants are evocative - explicit at times but not necessairily. It can also be thoughts, as long as you get some idea of what they're thinking and feeling.

[prillalar]

Yes, I find that you have to find the right level of detail -- not too little, not too much. It's tricky and it's different for every story.

[twistedchick]

Write the emotions more than the motions. And make sure the choreography works.

(sort of "learn the lines and don't bump into the furniture," but it does help.)

[prillalar]

Good thoughts!

Chaps who did taps aren't tapping anymore/They're doing choreography

[dejla.livejournal.com]

All good suggestions...

I tend to tell myself the sex scenes in bed. Well, tell isn't the right word. I try to imagine them first, try to invent a film in my head of what's going on. And sometimes then, I sketch it out in notes before I try to write it in detail.

Words for the parts are a pain. I don't care if I never read 'manhood' again -- but I cannot figure why all of the available English words for those parts have to sound so damn -- silly. Or precious, which is IMHO worse.

I'd go with writing the emotions and the sensations instead of focusing on the action exclusively. It works for me anyway...

[prillalar]

I tend to tell myself the sex scenes in bed.

Say no more! *g*

By the time I got here, all the good ones were taken.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

So I just want to reiterate:

1) make it in character
2) make it specific
3) go to town with those inane metaphors

Really, it was Tom Robbins who turned me on to that last one. He's not for everybody -- some people get squicked -- but I love the raw earthiness and total insanity of his use of language. I think if you can get to that kind of free-wheeling loony rightness, you've really gotten somewhere. And since your style is normally very tight and controlled, it might be a fun experiment for you.

Re: By the time I got here, all the good ones were taken.

[prillalar]

I should read some Robbins and get into the head space. Library time! Thanks for the rec. :)

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

I can't really answer the first question, as I've only ever RPG'd sex scenes, and I was pulling my hair out the whole time over that same issue. :-)

But to the 2nd, what really gets me into a PWP (because, really, I read a great deal fewer of them than I used to) is twofold. 1. Evidence that the characters in question know each other and actually have something invested in the experience; 2. A focus more on the emotions of the scene, what the character is *feeling* when his or her partner touches them, and less ... technical discourse, if that makes sense.

Also, I noticed that one of the first commenters mentioned something about the sex scene being in the middle of a long, plotty story, and while I love a long, plotty story as much as the next person, it doesn't necessarily help my interest in the sex scenes. Sometimes, even, I flip past the sex scene to get back to the plot, which is not a good sign.

[prillalar]

Also, I noticed that one of the first commenters mentioned something about the sex scene being in the middle of a long, plotty story, and while I love a long, plotty story as much as the next person, it doesn't necessarily help my interest in the sex scenes. Sometimes, even, I flip past the sex scene to get back to the plot, which is not a good sign.

For me, in a long story, I think it depends on the level of sexual tension at that point. If the author has been teasing me with the UST as well as the plot, I'll dive in hungrily. Otherwise, I'll skim the sex to get back to the plot.

I'm a reader not a writer, but

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

Anonymous porn is boring--it has to be in character or it's too generic to be truly satisfying.
I like it when the sex reflects the characters' relationship or advances it. That's not to say that you can't surprise the reader with how someone is in bed. It can be fun to read a story in which a character isn't how one expects. Either the reader or the other character in the scene can be surprised.

Is there a doctor in the house?
I am turned off by overly clinical terms like anus and penis. (Do many people think that's sexy?)

Realism is a Good Thing.
Perfect first-time sex is rare, in my experience, even if one person in the pairing is extremely experienced. Part of caring about someone is getting past the awkwardness so that the sex becomes great. Or at least satisfying. So I like it when a first time isn't perfect

A little kink goes a long way.
Vanilla can be sexy when the characters are well-portrayed. Don't forget that one person's hardcore kink is another person's major squick.

Dialogue does count.
Visuals are important, but nothing adds zing like a few lines of dialogue that ratchet up the sexual tension or focus the reader's attention on something the guys are doing/thinking. I forget now who wrote it, but several months ago I read a Snape/Harry scene in which Snape slaps Harry's hand away from his crotch and orders Harry to come on Snape's cock or not at all. Yikes. That was memorable.

oops--wrong pairing

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

Correction: isiscolo was kind enough to point out that the line I am referring to came out of the Snape/Black story by fabularasa, the epilogue to "Rat's Alley"
(http://www.tittisrealm.com/thinline/fabula/ratsalley6.html).

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

I find it hard not to use the same verbs and adjectives and metaphors over and over again.
Sorry--I didn't really address this. I doubt anyone is comaring one story to another, so using the same or similar words in a different fic is OK.

Maybe playing the "mental movie" game as you write will take you different places in the scene (visualizing the action like it's a film playing in your head).

Just keep in mind that sex is sex. Without injection kink or fetishes, it's hard to be really different. So make showing the relationship the strength of the story. I'm thinking of a little DS PWP that I read last night, featuring a pairing that isn't my OTP, in which the author did that adeptly. It was a rec posted in ds_fashback, Sandwiches by cmshaw:
http://www.squidge.org/dsa/archive/2/sandwiches.html

[prillalar]

Maybe playing the "mental movie" game as you write will take you different places in the scene (visualizing the action like it's a film playing in your head).

That's an interesting thought. I've actually been thinking these past few days how un-visual I really am. I don't hear the words that I read, I don't see the characters I read about. Instead, I have impressions of them, some of physical attributes, some of character traits, but they don't coalesce into a full image, something you could draw. I don't know why that is, but it has ever been so.

Thanks for your other suggestions too. :)

[(Anonymous)]

You should read 'How to Write a Dirty Story' by Susie Bright. It has a bit on writer burnout that sounds exactly what you are (or were) going through, (this comment is a little out of date). And it also has a bit that discusses your word problem. I bought it for the reason of wanting to write slash, but it taught me so much more than that, so I definitely recommend it.