prillalar | Your own personal Remus.

Your own personal Remus.

It had ocurred to me before, and was brought home when working on the Snape/Lupin, that I have very particular ideas about Remus's characterisation, more so than any other HP character. While they begin in the books, I've extrapolated a fair amount.

Not only that, but it seems to me that a lot of other people do the same thing and they don't always extrapolate in the same directions as me. Even kestrelsan and I, who often GMTA to a frightening degree, have our differences of opinion about Professor Lupin.

So when I read a story about him and find that the characterisation doesn't sit quite right with me, I sometimes realise it's just my own ideas about Remus that are being violated and not the book characterisation. But that doesn't make it any easier for me to deal.

I wonder how prevalent this is in the fandom. I think my own flist includes a lot of people who are more about the MWPP generation than the kids (I swing both ways, baby) so I doubt I could make a good judgement. But among those people, I wonder if there are more "personal Remuses" than Snapes or Siriuses.

He's a quiet man, an introvert, I'd say, and so it's harder to paint him in quick broad strokes. Unlike Snape or Sirius, he's someone I would actually want to know, to be friends with. So perhaps that makes me think about him more. He's more real than fantastic, lycanthropy notwithstanding.

Do you have similar reactions? Or is there another character you feel this way about? In other fandoms?

Some facts about Remus J Lupin, according to Hal:

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

* Remus has no close family living.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

If you feel like 'splaining, I'd love to why you think so. :-)

This has started to happen to me a *lot* more often than it used to. Not so much in HP fandom (my Draco doesn't actually *exist* in my fiction, because he's a total negative-product. That is, he has gained characteristics pretty much entirely from my reading soppy redemptionista fic that made me say "no. No. NO, dammit, NO!"), but... yeah. I've yet to write Batman the same way twice, and yet most other people's Batman characterizations work my *last* nerve. Often for no logical reason.

Same thing with Tim/Robin III.

I *do* have an internally-consistent Flash, and Everyone Else Is Wrong.

In the old days, it was more like "this is Xander! And that's Xander, too! And that one over there! Everything is Xander, yay!"

I was a much happier reader then, and while part of the problem is that there's a) a really *tiny* (relatively) amount of DC fanfic, and b) the good-to-crap ratio is a lot sadder... that's not all of it.

I'm pickier. I'm not sure if it's part of my continuing fannish evolution, or if I'm just missing my tranquilizers, or if I'm just more focused about my obsessions, or all of the above. The end result is the same: I'm reading pretty much nothing within my fandom and liking less.

/blather

That is, he has gained characteristics pretty much entirely from my reading soppy redemptionista fic that made me say "no. No. NO, dammit, NO!"

I'm starting to see versions of this more in more in various fandoms. Antifanon, I guess it would be; the swinging of the characterization pendulum all the way back to center and then somewhere off into a different direction that's not really on the canon map, either. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good -- depends greatly on the writer, of course -- but definitely developed via reaction to the fanon. I'm fascinated by it.

Oh, ditto. It's one of those quieter trends within fandom as a whole. Certainly, there are any number of stories I've written where I can say "well, yes, this was pretty much entirely done because I wanted to show people How It's Done," and I wonder how many other fans get up to that sort of thing.

In the old days, it was more like "this is Xander! And that's Xander, too! And that one over there! Everything is Xander, yay!"

Do you think part of that could be because Xander is one of those characters with a somewhat elastic characterisation? I always felt that way about Mulder, and I don't think that was just because I was young and callow. He was just the kind of person that you could make do just about anything if you treated it carefully.

I'm pickier. I'm not sure if it's part of my continuing fannish evolution, or if I'm just missing my tranquilizers, or if I'm just more focused about my obsessions, or all of the above. The end result is the same: I'm reading pretty much nothing within my fandom and liking less.

That's certainly happened to me. But I do find that it's much stronger for some characters than others. I'm super-fussy about Remus, but I'll cheerfully read reams and reams of OOC Draco/Ron at ff.n.

'Cause Shacklebolt is pretty.

Really, that's fairly close to the truth. I'm doing what I always end up doing -- making myself an OC that's not an OC by taking a very minor character and pairing him up with a more major character. Like Pendrell and Skinner. Like Luke and Wedge. Scully and Holly. Jack and Thor. *g*

I hope to insidiously make my own chracterisation the accepted fanon. (Of course, that means I should write about him more...)

What we saw of Kingsley made me think that he was a strong man, calm and sane. Which seems to me to be just what Remus needs now. Someone *new*, who hasn't been part of the whole MWPP thing, someone *alive* and *good* and *sane*. And hot.

Do you think part of that could be because Xander is one of those characters with a somewhat elastic characterisation? I always felt that way about Mulder, and I don't think that was just because I was young and callow. He was just the kind of person that you could make do just about anything if you treated it carefully.

It's possible? But you know, the thing about the Batverse (and the X-Men-verse, for that matter), is that there's so *much* canon that it would all be conflicting and brain-melting even if the books *weren't* periodically written by rabid crack monkeys. So, to an extremely large extent, you can do anything with these people and toss up a disclaimer about how the story takes place in the What The Fuck Ever arc and be absolutely correct and canonical.

That's certainly happened to me. But I do find that it's much stronger for some characters than others. I'm super-fussy about Remus, but I'll cheerfully read reams and reams of OOC Draco/Ron at ff.n.

*snorf* Oh, Hal. I've lost all respect for you.

*hides the reams of OOC Teen Titans slash she's been reading behind her back*

Infidel!!!! *flames* *defriends* *starts vicious rumours about*

Yes, this is just what I mean. :) I don't think anything on either of our lists is contrary to canon. I wonder, though, if we made similar lists about Sirius or Snape, if they'd differ quite so much.,

But you know, the thing about the Batverse (and the X-Men-verse, for that matter), is that there's so *much* canon that it would all be conflicting and brain-melting even if the books *weren't* periodically written by rabid crack monkeys.

Yes, good point. I stopped reading X-books when the canon about Cable seemed to change every *day*. I think they issued special bulletins about it.

OK, we're just picky BOFQs. Because we're worth it.

*snorf* Oh, Hal. I've lost all respect for you.

Oh dear. Well, it's a good thing then that I never wrote any and posted it under an assumed name. Imagine what you'd think of me then.

Yes, good point. I stopped reading X-books when the canon about Cable seemed to change every *day*. I think they issued special bulletins about it.

Cable has *always* been at war with Oceania...

Oh dear. Well, it's a good thing then that I never wrote any and posted it under an assumed name. Imagine what you'd think of me then.

*bee hee heee*

I have a whole backstory in my head about Remus. It changes sometimes, depending on the needs of my stories, but there are certain things that don't really change, and I can't stand reading fic where certain basic things I believe about him aren't included.

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

Yes. Except, no.

I tend to write him as gay, usually (unless i have a specific reason for putting him with a woman), but sometimes I wonder. Because I think he may have had liaisons with women while he was alone for twelve years, and as his salient characteristic is his need to be liked, I can see him accepting women lovers because they want him, and he wants to be wanted.

But he totally pings me as gay.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

He's been celibate since Sirius escaped (with a few failed relationships and some anonymous sex in the twelve years previous). Except when having (lots and lots of) sex with Sirius. *g*

I think he's also very much the dominant one sexually in almost any relationship (regardless of sexual position. If anyone ever topped from below, it'd be Remus), and while I don't think it's directly a function of being a werewolf (i.e., the wolf asserting his primacy in the pack or whatever), I think it comes from his need for control. I think only with someone he trusts implicitly ::coughSiriuscough:: would he give that up.

I think he had a "lost" period directly following the events of 10/31/81 which included a lot of anonymous sex (or really, sex with people who reminded him of Sirius)

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

Yes. Though not a fussy one. A practical man who teaches a practical subject.

And he's a book-lover.

He is not, however, the male Hermione.

* Remus has no close family living.

Yes, because otherwise, he wouldn't have been *so* bad off. I do like to speculate on a twin, killed when he was bitten, just because the name lends itself, but I've never actually included it in any of my fic.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

Yes. Sigh. Not even Molly, who should.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

Yes.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Post-veil? I think you mean Bill Weasley. *g*

I'd also add that Remus is about as emotionally repressed as anyone ever; he exerts a great deal of control and has spent his life shaping a "safe" and "harmless" persona to counteract any doubt that he is not human.

I have a hard time believing, after Sirius's death, that he will ever really open up to anyone again.

He's as mischievous as the others were, but hides it better. Because he taunts Snape quite effectively and apparently enjoys every minute of it in PoA.

He has no respect for authority but has finally learned to wield it effectively.

He's sensitive, in that he's spends a lot of time watching people and so is really good at reading them, letting them lead the conversation, and fading into the woodwork when need be. This gives him the ability to take the control he needs in situations where someone has to (e.g., the Shrieking Shack in PoA - except for Snape's interruption, Remus is in control the whole time). He's smart, thinks well under pressure, and has a lovely dry sense of humor that tends toward the morbid.

I will admit to making him Giles-y on occasion, probably more than is warranted.

I could go on for days. *g*

I just hate "girly weepy I couldn't live without you Siri" Remus and nervous, tentative, shrinking violet Remus. I also hate when people forget his sense of humor and make him a nervous nelly who fusses over everything like a hausfrau whose mother-in-law is coming to visit.

Well, I've definitely written fic in response to fanon that irritates me ::cough werewolves mate for life cough:: and yes, the one time I wrote Draco it was in direct reaction to reams of bad redeemed!Draco characaterizations.

I used to be a much more reactive writer; now I just avoid most of the fic that would irritate me.

The only time I go OOC! Get tf of my reading list! is when people make Sirius bi-sexual just so he can have a deviously - and violently - sexual interest in anything and everything that isn't nailed shut in an otherwise serious fic.

Ah, *that* Sirius, the one who will hump your leg even when he *isn't* a dog. *g*

Actually, in most of my fandoms, where it's clearly Not Our World, which includes HP, I tend to make nearly everybody quietly bi. Because I really do think that a lot more people in Our World would be if we didn't make such a frickin' big deal about sexuality being a one or the other type deal. Also, it's just easier. And sexier to me too.

Avoidance is *such* the healthy plan.

Because I think he may have had liaisons with women while he was alone for twelve years, and as his salient characteristic is his need to be liked, I can see him accepting women lovers because they want him, and he wants to be wanted.

I think I could accept this, depending on how it was handled. But I'd take a lot of convincing. Certainly, I think he'd only be in love with a man.

Remus/Tonks is something I just can't contemplate, b/c in Hal's World of Correct Canon, she's gay too.

Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Post-veil? I think you mean Bill Weasley.

Weasley, schmeasley! Go back to Egypt, Bill, and play with Daniel Jackson. *koff*

He's as mischievous as the others were, but hides it better. Because he taunts Snape quite effectively and apparently enjoys every minute of it in PoA.

That's interesting. And while I don't disagree, I don't remember him striking me that way in PoA. Though I was always a bit confused about the scene with Harry, Snape, and the Map. I'm not sure how much Snape knew and how much Remus knew Snape knew and how much Snape knew Remus knew Snape knew. Hmm.

I just hate "girly weepy I couldn't live without you Siri" Remus

Conveniently forgetting that Remus lived without Sirius for a long, long time. Remus copes. He always has, he always will. Of the four of them, he was the coper.

And such a nice boy.

I think some people need to see the characters as Good or Evil and can't really fathom the complexities in between. I've had a few pieces of feedback on Blood Will Tell, in which Sirius is tortured and broken down and ends up doing some things he wouldn't otherwise have done, that suggested it was out of character for Sirius to reveal information under torture. "He would never do that!" Or that he wouldn't "treat Remus that way". Because they couldn't see that a character isn't a wooden block that you slot into a story and then pull out when you're done, unchanged and ready to be slotted in somewhere else.

And now I'm just ranting. :)

I have a whole backstory in my head about Remus. It changes sometimes, depending on the needs of my stories, but there are certain things that don't really change, and I can't stand reading fic where certain basic things I believe about him aren't included.

Absolutely! I write my fic As It Happened in My Head. What I write is what I believe. It is not a variant, it is The Way. And when people do not follow that closely enough I find it impossible to like their stories. I mean - long haired, strong-silent-type Remus? No. Remus looks like a Geography teacher. Complete with boring jumpers.

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

Absolutely, positively YES. He is gay. He is so gay he is almost the Gay Middle-Aged-ish-Man stereotype. And his house is very neat. Except for when he's studying. Then there are books everywhere.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

He's been celibate since Sirius escaped.

Completely. In my opinion he basically hid himself away and had as little contact with people as possible because he didn't want to get hurt again. And no one could replace the Marauders. There are things I think happened that I don't want to actually describe here in case anyone sees it who is actually reading the fic, but Remus did not have an easy time of it, and the concept of being around people would probably have been terrifying for him.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

And he's a book-lover.

He is not, however, the male Hermione.

Well, I can see the similarities between him and Hermione and why they would get on, but he's less highly strung than she is and he was probably never quite the anally retentive studymaster that she it. He may well have had a few things that he was quite anal about (anyone who just thought of the words 'Sirius Black' go and stand in the corner, you filthy creature!) but he did know how to have a giggle. In fact, he was probably much sharper and more funny when they got a few drinks in him and he really let himself go a bit.

* Remus has no close family living.

Nope, not one. And he's not really in contact with any of the tiny amount of friends of theirs who didn't die last time around. And I believe that there was a much larger social circle than just the four boys and Lily. There were probably other girls in their year with whom Lily was friends (and Remus in particular probably got on quite well with Lily and may even have been the reason she and James ended up making friends) as well as siblings - I gave Siri a little brother called Elias and James a younger sister called Jennifer who was a part of their circle in the way Ginny Weasley is with the Trinity.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

Totally. Because he's quiet and tries to avoid the lime-light as much as possible he probably gets overlooked with the kind of "Aye, he's a good lad our Remus" attitude from most people. He doesn't cause a fuss so people don't bother asking.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

How could they not? I don't think anything happened at school, even if there were underlying feelings that were more than platonic, but they probably never became an item until they were late teens-early twenties.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

FUCK NO.

I'd also add that Remus is about as emotionally repressed as anyone ever; he exerts a great deal of control and has spent his life shaping a "safe" and "harmless" persona to counteract any doubt that he is not human.

I definitely agree that he is emotionally repressed, but I don't think his outward persona is something he's really had to cultivate. I think he was probably a quiet child before he was bitten, and over the years has just become more and more careful about trusting people.

I have a hard time believing, after Sirius's death, that he will ever really open up to anyone again.

It'd be the last nail in the coffin, so to speak.

He's as mischievous as the others were, but hides it better. Because he taunts Snape quite effectively and apparently enjoys every minute of it in PoA.

Well, let's face it - who wouldn't? He definitely has his naughty side, but I think he has much stronger and well-placed morals than some of the others. That's why he seems so well-behaved.

He has no respect for authority but has finally learned to wield it effectively.

That I disagree on somewhat; I think he respects authority and he always has, it's just that he knows that not all rules are life-threatening. Except for maybe the one about werewolves, animagi and not risking yours and innocent by-standers' lives.

He's sensitive, in that he's spends a lot of time watching people and so is really good at reading them, letting them lead the conversation, and fading into the woodwork when need be. This gives him the ability to take the control he needs in situations where someone has to (e.g., the Shrieking Shack in PoA - except for Snape's interruption, Remus is in control the whole time). He's smart, thinks well under pressure, and has a lovely dry sense of humor that tends toward the morbid.

Pretty much spot on, for me. He's an observer, he doesn't like to cause a fuss, but he will take charge if necessary, because he knows that he has calm, level-headed approach in that sort of situation. In fact, he probably thrives in them, because it gets the adrenaline buzzing without, more often than not, a real, emotional involvement.

I will admit to making him Giles-y on occasion, probably more than is warranted.

I'm not a Buffy fan, but I can see your point. Only, rather less posh.

I just hate "girly weepy I couldn't live without you Siri" Remus and nervous, tentative, shrinking violet Remus. I also hate when people forget his sense of humor and make him a nervous nelly who fusses over everything like a hausfrau whose mother-in-law is coming to visit.

Well, I think there are elements of that in my Remus. He could be accused of slight mother-hen-ness on occasion, but only because he cares about Sirius and Harry (and Draco and Gavin and every other bugger...) and wants the best for them and for them not to make life hard for themselves.

I don't think he's that much of a shrinking violet - reserved and certainly a little shy, but not the sort of person who is afraid to speak in public or anything. You'd proabbly have real trouble making him dance, though.

And as for Siri... more than anything, in my fic at least, he feels that he really needs to keep it together for Sirius and even if that is how he feels he would certainly down-play it almost to the point of denial. He knows that he's the quiet constant in all of their lives and is probably really quite comfortable like that as long as he knows they are safe.

I did write a meme thingy on Remus before, and if I can find it on my LJ I'll drop a link here.

But basically... I agree. Almost whole-heartedly!

.a.

(I can't believe I had to divide that into three! Sorry, Hal!)

I love Remus discussions. I will never ever understand the nature of the Remus/Sirius relationship no matter how hard I try so I've given up on trying to write the pairing.

And it's hard with anyone in the MWPP era, because we miss out on a whole section of their lives.

So let's see.
Remus is gay.
Hmm. Like all my characters, they're gay because I like slash. Where did you get the impression that Remus is gay? To me, the man just seems disinterested in sex in general. Which means I agree with your second point. Furthermore, I think that Remus has the discipline to withstand the lack of *anything* not just sex.

Agree with your academic point. I also like to think that he was never as talented as James and Sirius.Agree with your next two points after that too.

What I find really hard to characterise is the fact that Remus is not shy. Shy people do not become school prefects at Hogwarts. But the idea that he's self posessed (when he's teaching etc) doesn't jive always with the fact that he has to hide his lycanthropy etc. It's sort of hard to deal with characterise Remus The Man vs Remus The Student. Because I find they're different people, yet not much has changed.

Remus/Sirius. Hmm. I find it hard to see that 'ship during school, as much as I would like it. Sirius and James was what it was about. Sirius went to live at James' house etc. I don't know what happened when James hooked up with Lily. I don't know why Sirius betrayed Remus. I don't know what happened in the year after school. I don't know why Sirius didn't go to Remus throughout GoF and only went in the end. Even after they hugged like brothers in PoA.

Oh. I dig Kingsley too :)

Hi, I came via stellamaru's LJ - because I can't resist a Remus-discussion. Like you, I have very particular ideas about Remus's characterisation, more so than any other HP character. I am also with you on that Remus is harder to paint in quick broad strokes - I found it very difficult to write Remus for quite a long time. The results wouldn't feel right to me, and I tend to make him more emotional and vocal than he is in the books. The problem with Remus is that his reserve is interpreted in so many ways: there are those who think Remus is a feeble wall-flower who is too shy to speak up in public, those who think he's bland and boring, and those who think that there must be more to that man than his calm, polite facade lets on.

I obviously belong to the third group, and I think it is hard to maintain the characterisation as given in the books, i.e. the quiet politeness, and at the same time sketch the man behind the mask, with all his emotional ballast and hurt and anger and whatnot. This would require pulling off the mask and having him act and react in a more aggressive manner, which is wont to feel OOC.

Unlike Snape or Sirius, he's someone I would actually want to know, to be friends with.

Definitely. The reason why I am so very partial to Remus is that he works for me as an interesting character in a novel and he would, um, work for me as a real person.

Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

I find it very interesting that so many fans read Book!Remus as gay. I can see (though I don't support) the theory that Rowling coded homosexuality/AIDS in his character, but I've never felt that way when I read the novels. And I certainly never thought Remus gay from the characterisation alone. Slash changed my view only slightly: all my characters are cheerfully bisexual (as elaborated here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/donnaimmaculata/2775.html#cutid1)), because I can't be bothered to deal with the RL implications and problems of coming-outs and living-in-the-closet. They deal with comparable issues already by being wizards.

Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

He's got enough self-control to efficiently suppress the libido of all Fanon!Siriuses plus Decadent!Orgy!Malfoys. I don't know whether his libido is strong or not. His self-control is stronger.

Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

My view on this is tinted by fandom: I am getting sick of university/bookstore/library worker Remus. It works OK, but I'd wish for authors to give him a different background from time to time. (Except of prostitution, which makes me cringe, because this is so essentially un-Remus.)

Remus has no close family living and Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

That is very true. Come to that, nobody seemed to worry much about Sirius, either, and some people *coughMollycough* seemed rather pissed off by his behaviour. I wonder what Molly really thinks about Remus. Judging from Ron's reaction in PoA, the Weasleys have not been brought up to like werewolves.

Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

Not necessarily. I am not a dedicated Sirius/Remus shipper, but as the majority of the fics I read (centred around Sirius, Remus and Severus) includes references to past or current relationship between them, I accept this view. Though my favourite Sirius/Remus fics are those where they get together post-Azkaban - without any previous relationships or schoolboy crushes.

Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

Kingsley or Bill *g* Remus could do with someone who is calm and self-assured and not quite as damaged as his usual partners Sirius and Severus. (There might of course be horrible secrets in Kingsley's and Bill's pasts, but as long as I don't know about them, I pretend there aren't.)

Oh, and hot. Someone who's really, really hot. Remus could do with that, too.

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

I actually don't have a strong opinion on Remus' sexual orientation. I'm partial to stories that pair him with Sirius or Snape, so, yeah, no problem seeing him as gay. But I also love Remus/Hermione when done well (meaning about once every 700 years, but hey, them's the breaks). I don't see him as bi, either. Or rather, I think if he *was* bi, he'd repress it and "pick a side" based on the gender of the first person he got into a relationship with.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

I'm with

donnaimmaculata on that one -- it's not that his libido's not strong, it's that his self-control is stronger.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

Actually, my Remus is not so much an academic at heart as he is a teacher at heart. He's genuitely talented at it, good at getting students to like, respect and trust him, at maintaining discipline without resorting to intimidation, good at imparting the information he knows. The fact that he was teaching an academic subject is mostly incidental -- he'd be equally good at teaching a purely practical skill. (And, in fact, he seemed to take a particularly practical, hands-on approach to teachng Defense, rather than a bookish one.)

* Remus has no close family living.

Yes. I think he had loving and supportive parents, and I think they can't possibly be around anymore, because there's no way they would've let him go around so underfed and shabbily dressed. My Remus is also an only child.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

Yep.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

In stories where Remus is gay, yeah, definitely. Can't get away from it.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

No comment. :-)

"He would never do that!" Or that he wouldn't "treat Remus that way".

Oh yes.

"Why are you making Sirius such a bastard?"

It always makes me want to respond, "Um, did you people *read* the books?"

I *love* Sirius. Adore him to pieces. But he's an obnoxious jerk quite a bit of the time (which is quite possibly why I love him).

Of course, I'm also accused by the same people of making Remus perfect, when I like to think my Remus is as flawed as canon!Remus is, and as flawed as Sirius (and Snape and everyone else) is, but since his flaws are a lot quieter (passive-aggression, negligence, selfishness, obstinance), they may not come across well - I may not be a good enough writer to get the nuances across in my stories. Sigh.

I think I could accept this, depending on how it was handled. But I'd take a lot of convincing. Certainly, I think he'd only be in love with a man.

Yeah, definitely that last thing, but I just... I can see him just falling into things out of convenience and then breaking them off when they became troublesome. Not even breaking them off, just... shutting down and moving on. Because it's just sex and it didn't really matter, and it was nice while it lasted, but now you're getting too close and he just doesn't do that.

I don't think Remus gives much of himself to anyone anymore. I think it's a very sad defense/coping strategy.

Remus/Tonks is something I just can't contemplate, b/c in Hal's World of Correct Canon, she's gay too.

I can't contemplate Remus/Tonks because wtf? Where does it come from? Admittedly, Remus/Bill has no canon support either, but at least they seem to have interests in common and are only a few years (5-6) apart in age.

And yeah, I can't seem him falling for a woman, though I can imagine Molly trying to push them together.

I have no strong feelings on Tonks's sexuality either way; I can, strangely enough, see her with Moody or Snape, or with one of the girls.

Go back to Egypt, Bill, and play with Daniel Jackson.

I think Bill's the adventurous yet stable type that Remus really *needs*. Plus, he's so freaking cool.

That's interesting. And while I don't disagree, I don't remember him striking me that way in PoA. Though I was always a bit confused about the scene with Harry, Snape, and the Map. I'm not sure how much Snape knew and how much Remus knew Snape knew and how much Snape knew Remus knew Snape knew. Hmm.

Well, he also encourages Neville to dress Snape in drag and he has to know that'll get back to Snape and enrage him. And yeah, I think both Snape and Remus know that the other knows almost everything in the Map scene - the question is, how widely in use were the nicknames? Though once one knows Remus is a werewolf, it's not a leap to "Moony" and the map's insults probably seemed very familiar to Snape. So I think Remus was quite enjoying the fact that Snape knew and yet had no proof.

But that's just me.

Conveniently forgetting that Remus lived without Sirius for a long, long time. Remus copes. He always has, he always will. Of the four of them, he was the coper.

Yes. He survives. And he's the only one who has mostly moved past the mess of their schoolboy rivalries (though he does needle Snape. Have to keep the side up, after all).

And such a nice boy.

Mmm... definitely one a mother would love if you brought him home.

Oh yeah. My bloodpressure thanks me.

I think he respects authority and he always has, it's just that he knows that not all rules are life-threatening. Except for maybe the one about werewolves, animagi and not risking yours and innocent by-standers' lives.

He spends all of PoA flouting Dumbledore's authority. He's criminally negligent in not informing Dumbledore that Sirius knows ways into the castle that even Dumbledore may not (not counting the Shrieking SHack tunnel, which Dumbledore *did* know about and yet didn't have blocked up. What's *that* about?) and that Sirius is an animagus who could use his animal form to harm any of teh children.

He keeps silent even after it appears Sirius has attacked Ron in his bed.

That's a complete lack of regard for any sort of authority, not to mention the safety of a couple hundred children and some adults.

He undermines Snape's authority as a teacher when he suggests dressing Snape in drag to Neville. He gives Harry back the map at the end of PoA.

His whole existence is basically a big fuck-you to the Ministry etc.

So I think his respect for authority is basically predicated on people respecting whatever authority he chooses to assert, when he finally bothers.

I love Remus.

He's the the actual leader of the Order. By which I mean, Dumbledore gives the orders, but he's the one people look to for the day to day stuff. This becomes very clear around the Grimmauld Place kitchen table, where he defuses the arguments and decides how much information to give the kids - not the parental figures of Sirius or Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. Which maybe why he has to spend so much time in the field. He's the one who makes sure the various operations work.

The word I associate the most with Remus is "quiet." He doesn't shout, he doesn't argue, he doesn't seek out attention. But you know there's a wolf beneath that surface - a wolf that burns cold. It showed in the end of PoA, when he was quite coldly prepared to kill Peter.

He loved Sirius. He loved all of them, and he spent twelve years being alone, mourning his friends, two years knowing that Peter was a live traitor instead of a dead hero and one year in Sirius' arms, duty permitting. He probably thinks of that as the best year of his life since he attended Hogwarts, second only to the year he taught there.

He loves Harry as a nephew, maybe a son. He doesn't hate Snape. He doesn't like Snape, but he doesn't hate him and never did. Which is why I think that if they ever do become lovers, (and both are gay in my mind. Not bi, but gay.)it'll be a slow, quiet thing, not the passion of enemies becoming lovers. And they'd spend more nights just being together than in grand lovemaking.

He's a born teacher and he's proud that Harry seems to be one, too.

I think it is because I am such a non-OTP'er that I am cheerfully able to accept most consistent versions of canon characters. I don't see Remus as gay, but I can accept him (and write him) that way. (I have a special place in my heart for Remus/Hermione, because I'm a Hermione, and I've always fallen for Remuses.) I think the only canon character I am unable to see as heterosexual is Snape. He's either gay or asexual. But everyone else changes according to my slashy needs.

I do despise the meek mild-mannered tea-drinking stereotype, though, because it has no basis in canon and it's boring. I see Remus as being somewhat passive-aggressive, rather controlling but preferring to exercise that control from behind the scenes.

I really don't see Remus/Sirius at all. Since most Remus/Sirius seems to be written from the point of view of "we accept this as canon, now let's continue" I am not convinced by most such stories.

Did you ever consider his motives? His real motives? Because there are the motives we all convince ourselves are our reasons, but we usually have, literally, alterior motives backing them up. This is a case of either one of his closest friends, with whom he spent his formative years and who accepted him even after finding out his Secret, or his former love (you choose) returning. He has to face Harry every day, who is a very real reminder of his past, and yes, perhaps his judgment was a little off, but that does not mean he lacks any sense of respect for authority.

Most of the examples you give do not relate to authority but to personal reactions. How would you honestly feel if you were in his position? I know I would find it as hard as he did to say anything, because even after all those happenings years ago some things remain. Sometimes, when you have a bond with someone, no matter what they do or how terrible it seems, you can't shake your loyalty to them. I was abused by my mother for years, but I protected her from violent boyfriends most of my life, so I can certainly see that point of view. Sometimes you cannot think about what is right for everyone else (I promise you that these days I genuinely wish my mother was dead) and only saving yourself and the person you are protecting; more often than not, even your own safety goes out of the window.

Maybe it's a matter of life experience and the sort of person you are. But if that is the case, all those quizzes are right and Remus and I really do have a lot in common.

As for the Snape thing - there's authority and there's being a down-right nasty bastard. It is obvious that Neville is terrified of Snape even before he says so, and if a teacher is that mean and hurtful to a child he is partly responsible for he deserves everything he gets. And it is light-hearted fun. It is mischevious. He probably doesn't see Snape as a teacher, really, he probably still sees him as the horrid little brat he knew at school. I'm a real fight-for-the-underdog sort of person and Remus' actions are almost certainly what I would have done myself if I were him. Being myself I would probably also have punched him and told him he wasn't fit to work around granite, let alone children with still-developing self-images who really do not need that kind of oppression.

I also have to say that your post does come across as a little confrontational, but maybe that's just me - there's really no need to turn this into a flame war! ;) Unless we can involve St.John Allerdyce...

.a.

Mileage obviously varies.

Mileage?

~blinks~ I'm sorry?

.a.

I'm agreeing to disagree, as obviously, we see the character and his actions a bit differently on this point - "your mileage may vary" (abbreviated YMMV) used to be fairly common internet shorthand for expressing that Perhaps it's fallen out of favor.

Oh, I see! Not familiar with that one, but fair enough!

.a.

Remus, ahh, yes, someone who’s always there, someone who cares.
Cool, calm, collected. Perhaps, Mischievous in his own subtle way.
Down to earth. I always see him surrounded by autumn’s air—and dried leaves, falling and yielding in his presence. He just has that strong control going on.
He’s smart, but modest. Cunning, but not necessary evil.
He knows what he wants,
He knows what he needs. But even with that, he’s able to accept what others lead him into. Or makes you believe that your able to lead him to. Often enough, He is quite willing to make you satisfied.

He is loved, and loves in return, even though the love you have for him is not strong enough to break through his dark past. He always tends to have a shield of wall around himself. He really deserves more than he allows himself to accept.
He can make you open yourself to him, but will never do the same in return.
He has a warm, comfortable air around him that ooze out, ‘your safe with me—I’ll protect you’
Pleasant to be around, and I agree with

musesfool that he would be someone who you would want to get to know, have as a friend.

With my remus, If once you have his trust, he’s yours. Forever.. but then again, it might just be you who belongs to him. He can make you loose yourself. Willingly. Oh, so willingly.

But hey, that’s just my remus. As I always say, everyone should have a remus to call their own.

ps- sorry for the doubble-take/post/comment thing, if it happens. lj is not being friendly to me.

* Remus is gay. He is not cheerfully bisexual. He is gay.

Yes. And I'm not sure why he strikes me that way so strongly. And I suspect part of what I'm reading that way is the fact that he projects "There's something about me you don't know," and we have a perfectly good explanation for that in canon, which is that he's a werewolf. And he's still gay, in my head.

* Remus does not have a very strong libido. He enjoys sex, but he doesn't have to have it.

Mmm . . . yes, to the degree that there have been reasonably long stretches of time when he's decided having a relationship with anyone was just too much trouble. But I hate it when authors take this to the extreme of writing him spending twelve years doing nothing but pining over Sirius.

* Remus is an academic at heart, although he may not have been able to pursue that as he would have liked.

Yes. Which doesn't mean he's not dangerous in a fight. Hermione's an academic at heart, and she's growing up seriously scary.

* Remus has no close family living.

I think so, because first of all they'd look after him a bit, and I don't get the sense that anyone does, and second of all, I think we would have heard something about it in OotP.

* Nobody worries much about Remus; they just assume that he's fine. He doesn't ever let on that he might not be fine.

I think Molly worries about Remus, sometimes, but Remus tries to discourage her.

* Remus and Sirius had *something* between them. I can go back and forth on how much and when, but there was something and it must always be taken into account.

I think I could, if pressed, write based on the assumption that Remus and Sirius never actually had sex before Sirius died. But I don't really want to, so I don't.

* Remus and Kingsley Shacklebolt are made for each other.

???

Do you have similar reactions? Or is there another character you feel this way about? In other fandoms?

Percy and Remus are the HP characters that are most clearly developed in my head. I'm pretty flexible and will read widely varying characterizations, but I always recognize that this is not *my* Percy or Remus. And since OotP I also recognize that it would take a lot of work to make my Percy fit with canon Percy, but I don't care. In a way, I'm happy that JKR has left Remus more open to interpretation.

I think Bill's the adventurous yet stable type that Remus really *needs*. Plus, he's so freaking cool.

Ah, but Kingsley is also adventurous yet stable. He's an Auror! Plus he's very, very cool. And he's not a long-haired pillock. *g*

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Your own personal Remus.

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a personal remus, made to order. hee

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